TheRailwire
General Discussion => N and Z Scales => Topic started by: craigolio1 on March 15, 2015, 11:45:02 PM
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I'm in the planning stages of my first phase of my layout, which will be a large yard and engine terminal. The benchwork in this section will be 1/2" plywood but I'm not sure what I want to put on top of that. I want to be able to subtly vary the terrain because even flat surfaces aren't truly flat and so because of that I don't think I want to lay it right on top of the plywood. I see a lot of people using sheet cork. Strip cork would allow me to make those subtle changes in terrain I talked about. Perhaps a combination of the two?
I don't think I'm interested in foam insulation. I don't need that much thickness and based on my experience with a module I built, I think it's too noisy.
That being said, it is pretty darn flat.
I'm thinking maybe sheet cork and I could sand it down or remove areas where I need depressions or drainage ditches and such.
What is everyone else doing?
This is the yard I'm modelling.
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/103695838.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8437/7909089048_688ca21a27_b.jpg
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3186/2571272593_d71c835853_b.jpg
Thanks for your input.
Craig
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It's been years, and I don't know if the type I used is even made today, but I used suspended ceiling tiles for my "flat" town. If you can find the type made from what looks like wood fibers, the back side is a reasonably good "dirt brown", if it happens to show through, and the tile can be cut easily to make ditches and such. It holds pins well enough to keep track in place until the glue dries, but shouldn't be relied on for spikes and screws, much like foam. The cut edges tend to be "fuzzy", as the fibers stick up, but ground cover can hide that, and, since it's a "wood" color, any remaining fuzzies can pass for dried weeds.
Most of the tiles I see today seem to be made from pressed paper, look somewhat similar to Homasote, and would probably work. The cut edges would need to be painted, or completely hidden by scenery, but that's a good idea with any subroadbed. The edges look like pressed paper, so can't pass for much of anything, at least in their natural gray.
The tiles are 2 x 4 feet, and half to 3/4 of an inch thick, so a couple tiles will do a nice sized yard, and when I bought mine, they were sold individually.
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I'll second the ceiling tiles.
I've covered my entire layout with them. I got mine from Home Depot and I paid like $0.51 per sqft or $4.00 per tile.
Some come in an 8 pack and some are sold individually. Sometime if some are damaged, they will give them to you.
I also used a layer of 1-1/2" white beadboard foam below the tiles so I could carve depressions through the tile and into the white foam for creeks and sloughs. I glued it down to the top of the foam with PL300 so it wouldn't melt the foam.
It's quiet like Homasote but does not hold nails very well, you may get one or two shots per hole. In my case I used track nails to hold the cork in place and then used track nails to hold the track in place on the cork. This will hold things in place until the ballast gets glued down. I've had all the track just nailed in place for almost three years now with very little movement.
If you want, you can float and sand the tile between joints and then paint it. It gets a little dusty and feathery if you sand and carve it, but a coat of paint will seal it up.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-kqN4Mk8nNH8/TvGA_uukaaI/AAAAAAAAAc0/NvJzcz7luAA/s640/tile%25201.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-qAIPIMRBCpc/TvGKXxazj6I/AAAAAAAAAfM/bgnxPdTu4Xs/s640/%25231.JPG)
I laid out the entire yard at El Dorado with the mains on cork and the yard tracks directly on the tile.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-AY6NR9aMCQk/UCh-9QG_BWI/AAAAAAAABtM/BgFQT31duwA/s640/DSCN1871.JPG)
I painted the tiles and then painted the track, then ballasted it into place. It isn't going anywhere now.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-bygFJMAzou0/UPj0pyvxoMI/AAAAAAAAChQ/MjXpdMT8YN0/s640/DSCN2314%2520800.jpg)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-vDNB-a5ndeE/UPj0uyDGkyI/AAAAAAAAChk/oCz0TGEKpns/s640/DSCN2323%2520800.jpg)
Once the ballast is dry it ain't moving and I'll go back through and pull up the nails.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-hZV1BHqd0mY/VG1HAlbUI9I/AAAAAAAAHAc/xeCpVQSBxtc/s640/IMG_1655.JPG)
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Great idea guys.
How are they for noise?
Craig
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As quiet as Homasote.
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I didn't do anything where my pieces meet. It will all be under scenery anyway, and solidly glued to plywood, so it isn't going to move. If there's a gap a little extra dirt will fill it.
My mainline is on wood roadbed, so holding it down was easy. The secondary tracks are directly on the tile, and were held in place with ordinary straight pins. A pair of pins on either side, put in at an angle so they would go all the way in, hold a tie very nicely, and the ties hold the rail. They can be put in by hand, but most need pliers to get out, simply because it's hard to get a good hold on them once they're in. If you know that the track is in the right place, you can pin the rails, by putting a pin on either side, crossed over the center of the track, and don't have to push them all the way down. But you can't test the track that way. On my industrial tracks it didn't matter, but on "good track" one would probably want to test it before gluing.
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I used sheet cork in my yards, obtained from Hobby Lobby or Michael's. It is slightly lower than Atlas cork roadbed, so there is a little transition. If you wanted more, you would probably use sheet cork or other below even mainline tracks, with the Atlas cork on top. The small different was enough for me.
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Bendtracker1 that track laying looks very good.
Nice to know that its quiet.
Thanks again everyone.
Craig
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Thank you.
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I used sheet cork in my yards, obtained from Hobby Lobby or Michael's. It is slightly lower than Atlas cork roadbed, so there is a little transition. If you wanted more, you would probably use sheet cork or other below even mainline tracks, with the Atlas cork on top. The small different was enough for me.
I use Midwest Cork for my main lines, and then sheet cork for the yard areas and as a base for my roads. I glue it to 1" foam with wood glue. It is very easy to cut in ditches and ponds. Then I paint it all with a dirt colored paint before adding ground cover and trees.
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Woodland scenic is now selling large (12" x 24") sheets of thin foam insulation (not the same 'black stuff' they market as roadbed). I believe it's available in 1/16", 1/8", and 1/4" thickness. It's good for raising buildings above the layout base. it might be an alternative if you're looking for a creatng a low ballast profile. I've used both the
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I understand the foam is noisier than the Midwest cork product. I made a small logging line once and laid it right on white styrofoam. It was crazy noisy. The woodland scenics stuff is less dense so I imagine it would transmit less sound but still I'm hesitant to use foam as roadbed. Perhaps someone which experience in that product can weigh in.
I'm leaning towards cork for the mains and the yard on ceiling tile.
Thanks.
Craig
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Craig,
I was screwing around downstairs tonight and grabbed a quick video of a GP7 and some cars running on the ceiling tile.
I set the camera about 16" from train, ran the train at about half throttle.
In the beginning and the end you can hear the throttle as I change the speed. The other noise your hearing is the Loco and the Rock Island and Rio Grande Trainworx gons that have metal wheels. All the rest have MTL plastic wheels.
The track is only tacked into place on the cork, the cork is cut sheet/roll cork that is tacked to the ceiling tile, the ceiling tile is glued to 1-1/2" beadboard foam which is glued to the 1/2" plywood deck.
All in all, it's pretty quite. On an op night, with 4-6 crew jabbering away, you don't even hear anything. If a fan or heater is running, you won't hear a thing either.
If I had to do it over again, I'd use the same thing.
Actually here is another one made a few months ago, These are Kato locos and Kato Superliners running about half throttle.
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Thanks Allen. Sounds good to me. I have all metal wheels so know there will be some sound.
Craig
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The product you put on the roof then put the shingles over. Even has a rough texture that simulates ballast.
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Tar paper? :scared:
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Tar paper? :scared:
Maybe he is talking about the ice/water barrier style of tar paper that has a granulated surface ?
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Many many many years ago O gaugers using inside third rail track used to use the "granulated shingles", whatever the proper name is, for ballast. Just nail the 3-rail track down on top of it. Primitive by today's standards, but their trains ran, and looked a little better, so they did it.
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I understand the foam is noisier than the Midwest cork product. I made a small logging line once and laid it right on white styrofoam. It was crazy noisy. The woodland scenics stuff is less dense so I imagine it would transmit less sound but still I'm hesitant to use foam as roadbed. Perhaps someone which experience in that product can weigh in.
I'm leaning towards cork for the mains and the yard on ceiling tile.
Thanks.
Craig
I guess I should have paid more attention to your initial post citing your noise concerns. My entire layout base is foam board insulation, and while there is some noticeable change in the noise level, it appears to improve once the track is ballasted and scenery base is added. Having built layouts in both methods, I've found that working with a foam base in shaping the contours is faster and easier, which is a big advantage to anyone who's doesn't get to spend as much time working on the layout as we'd prefer.
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Friend used "rolled roofing" material from HD. One side has an aggregate "finish"...he used the other side. Thick enough to be close to the height of roadbed. Roll has a lot of feet...you would only use a small portion.
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I wonder what is the advantage of using unusual materials like roofing for roadbed instead of just getting a sheet of cork gasket material from an automotive parts store? Does the roofing (type of a tar paper?) deaden the sound better than sheet of cork? Or is is it simply a case of some model railroader just wanting to be different (or using whatever they had on-hand at the time)?
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More likely "whatever's on hand", and others followed his lead. For most people, roll roofing would be more likely to come to mind than cork gaskets from the auto parts store. I didn't know cars used cork gaskets until someone else, years ago, suggested it for roadbed.