TheRailwire
General Discussion => N and Z Scales => Topic started by: carlso on July 23, 2014, 10:31:43 PM
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Up front, I am in no way associated with this company, just trying to pass on goodies.
Looks promising to me. Try the links, you will be impressed.
Carl
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I think this is a great idea! How they function and sound in actual operation would have to be determined. At an MSRP of over 40 bucks per car, that could get expensive really quick with the suggested application being every 3rd car. Hmmm...on my maximum train length of 30 cars...that's ten decoders...over 400 bucks...'spensive! Maybe for N scale, the frequency would be every 6 cars...but that'd still be 200 bucks...per train.
Something to think about...
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Reminded me of dinosaurs , but in fairness the sound I hear has been stepped on at least twice by crappy audio systems . I wonder if they are going to do 50's sounds in 50's era cars , you know , more rock n roll on old tracks . This is Cousin Brucie sign' off .
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So does this fit into an open hopper? :trollface:
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[sigh] Understand from the get-go I'm not a fan of model sound. I'm much more "railfan" than "modeler", and refuse to gloss over the myriad issues with model sound accuracy and reproduction fidelity. That disclaimer now in mind:
I watched and listened to the clips. Digital "tape loop"-type synthesis impresses me not. My ear always goes to "oh, I just heard that exact same sound not 30 seconds ago in completely different circumstances". Take the wheel squeal, for instance, that was in two or three of the clips on the first vid. Same squeal, same duration, same frequency, same rise/fall. I was tired of it by the third occurrence. Then there are the wheel drops... gee, trains going over a turnout or crossing frog have a very specific patter. I can count the number of cars on the 12:23am Amtrak by how the wheels hit the diamonds a mile away from the house. Random wheel drop sounds don't convey the presence or the location of car or cars versus what is going on with the rails. "Ambiance" has to make sense within the setting.
Entertaining for maybe 5 minutes or so, and then just annoying and fatiguing. What these folks don't understand in the comparison to a 1:1 trainwatching environment, there, the sounds come and go with each passing train. Then you get a break - like "rests" in performing a musical instrument, the silence is just as much part of the music as the notes are. In the context of the typical MRR, the sounds become a continuous cacophony swirling around the room - if you're running trains, you're getting sound. Whether it makes sense or not, and with little to no dimension of distance.
To each their own, I s'pose, but not my cup of tea. Or coffee.
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That's pretty much it tho Mike, sure the N scale stuff doesn't get the coupler crash but if you run metal wheels there's alot of wheel on rail sound that can be heard (despite no actual squeals). The only thing I see being of any possible use is the sounds of the reefer unit.
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Like I said before, it's a cool idea, but the execution may be not right. One thing ya gotta understand is that the sound decoder manufacturers haven't got it figured out yet how to get good sound out of their installs.
I'll get one or two, try 'em out...play around with 'em and then make my final judgement.
But, I AM a sound guy. I love it...in N-scale...and of course you're not going to like this if you don't like sound. This product is not for you.
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Digital "tape loop"-type synthesis impresses me not. My ear always goes to "oh, I just heard that exact same sound not 30 seconds ago in completely different circumstances".
This. Having worked as an audio engineer (back in the reel-to-reel days, no less), I'm autonomically doing this mental audio note-taking on a constant basis. Movies where the sound effects editor gets lazy and loops a sound sequence makes me want to do a primal scream.
Entertaining for maybe 5 minutes or so, and then just annoying and fatiguing.
This again. I could also imagine the migraine-inducing racket when some over-zealous train sound freak installs one of these things in every car they own (don't laugh--I know a guy who would do this). Oy.
What these folks don't understand in the comparison to a 1:1 trainwatching environment, there, the sounds come and go with each passing train. Then you get a break - like "rests" in performing a musical instrument, the silence is just as much part of the music as the notes are. In the context of the typical MRR, the sounds become a continuous cacophony swirling around the room - if you're running trains, you're getting sound. Whether it makes sense or not, and with little to no dimension of distance.
And again. It's Physics 101, boys and girls: just as water doesn't scale down and make model waterfalls, sound doesn't behave correctly at 1:160 (or whatever) either. There's no escape from model sound, when in fact there should be blissful silence when the train disappears 'round the bend...
IMO, model sound is nothing more than a gimmick (and the cynic in me says it's just a way for manufacturers to sell more product). Since sound doesn't scale down, and especially since the fidelity will always be compromised by size, it will for me be nothing more than an annoying distraction from any sense of realism, rather than a means of enhancing it. It makes models seem more like toys, quickly undoing what super-detailers and proto-modelers strive so hard to achieve.
/rant
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IMO, model sound is nothing more than a gimmick (and the cynic in me says it's just a way for manufacturers to sell more product). Since sound doesn't scale down, and especially since the fidelity will always be compromised by size, it will for me be nothing more than an annoying distraction from any sense of realism, rather than a means of enhancing it. It makes models seem more like toys, quickly undoing what super-detailers and proto-modelers strive so hard to achieve.
The cynic in me believes this is just another gimmick to sell $20 boxcars for $50 :D Then you also have to ask the question, what about the Mack dump truck sitting at the crossing? After the train passed, it just sat there, did the driver fall asleep? What about the people standing on the sidewalk, why aren't they moving? Bottom line, how much noise do we really wish to introduce into our hobby? One of the reasons I like model trains is because they are quite ;) What's next, handing out ear protection at the door as people enter our train rooms :trollface:
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I made it to 39 seconds before the squealing hurt my ear.
I would like to see more of that layout, though.
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No matter how hard you try, you'll still fall short of the perfect scale illusion. My little 18x36 logging railroad has a cassette tape sound track of various steam and mill sounds, actually sounds quite good, and the layout is very tiny with embedded speakers in the buildings. Any of you that have seen it at Bedford know it. I get a real chuckle out of it when I'm asked what sound decoder I use and I respond "Radio Shack".
But at the end of the day, you'll still fall short. One of my all-time favorite comments about the layout, and perhaps modeling in general.... came from a 12-year old or so at a public show. He had quietly, and intently, studied the layout for quite some time. He finally spoke up.
"Hey, mister... Your trains run really good. Now lets see you run the sawmill and cut lumber...." and to him, that made perfect sense. He was dead serious. After all, everything else was there and running, why wasn't that equally possible?
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Ha! Same issue/philosophy when populating layouts with vehicles and figures. That they are not moving in locations or postures where they should be is incongruous. Why is it that only the trains move? That's why any cars or people on my layouts will be in positions that make sense that they are still - vehicles parked or stopped at stop signs, people sitting, leaning or laying down.
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some of the guys in our club have the HO cattle car that makes the noise of cattle being jostled around. Annoying.
Joe
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some of the guys in our club have the HO cattle car that makes the noise of cattle being jostled around. Annoying.
Less annoying than, say, accurate aromas. And you know they've been trying to figure out how to do it. :facepalm:
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Then you also have to ask the question, what about the Mack dump truck sitting at the crossing? After the train passed, it just sat there, did the driver fall asleep?
He's not asleep, he's just counting how many times the same train comes by.
Jason
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Well, I was going to chime in, but yous guys covered it.
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Ha! Same issue/philosophy when populating layouts with vehicles and figures. That they are not moving in locations or postures where they should be is incongruous. Why is it that only the trains move? That's why any cars or people on my layouts will be in positions that make sense that they are still - vehicles parked or stopped at stop signs, people sitting, leaning or laying down.
I'm totally with you on people being in frozen poses that actually make sense. Nothing sillier or less realistic than figures, animals, etc., that are frozen in a position of extreme action. To me, this conveys total lack of movement whereas a figure in a naturally still position conveys impending movement.
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I wonder what 4 cars would sound like . That would also , if all were out of sync and spaced apart , give a unique stereo effect . If one wants to be more correct the most squeaks and squeals happen while on sharp curves and turnout tangents .
So what would be better is a photo-cell triggered loop longer than the train time of the actual passage of a train . The loop should not reset itself at the beginning for the next event as that would be too identifiable after a few trains . This unit could be mounted in a structure , sidelined railroad car , or the scenery itself . It should have a volume control . Base , and treble would also be helpful . Super cool would be an automatic speed rate triggered by a pair of separated photo cells which the elapsed time between each triggered would calculate the speed at which the loop would run . Mount at a yard throat and you don't hear it wherever the train roams .
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The added cost and work this new Soundtraxx product presents makes my idea of a sound system that features a single, quality throttle-based speaker(s) rather than multiple equipment-based, tinny speakers and decoders more sensible.
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I like the sound, but putting it in a car doesn't make sense. When I watch a train I am in one position and I hear each car hit the same section of track. That is where you could forgive some of the duplicate sounds. It seems to me that the sound should be stationary and the train goes by. Place a couple around the layout triggered by each train. No need for DCC.
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:| The 2014 Lionel Catalog features a three car set of PFE 1950's steel reefers one of which features operator triggered sounds as shown in the You Tube clip, brake squeal ,coupler clash etc. The car can apparently also be set to just run the sounds. Of course this is O Gauge (scale) from the company who is going to be offering a Big Boy with three speakers, steam that exhausts from blow off valves, different sounds from different parts of the locomotive when operating, and a coal load in the tender that slowly depletes as the locomotive operates. Yes car sound would be ok of done correctly, but as DKS points out if someone wants to equip ever car in his hundred car fleet then forget it. I have a very very early steam sound car (or attempt at steam sound). A Rio Grande live stock car was fitted with a small speaker a reed switch circuit connected to a cam on one axel powered by an N cel battery the circuit opened and closed as the wheel axel turned opening and closing the circuit producing a "Ting Ting" or "Ching Ching" sound that kind of sounded like a small steam locomotive. the sound I really want is of some Yahoo starting up his noisy Dodge Ram Diesel Pickup in the parking lot. Nate Goodman (Nato).
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It seems to me that the sound should be stationary and the train goes by.
For joint clicks, perhaps. But many of the other sounds simulated by the cars--wheel squeals, flat spots, brake rigging, etc.--should travel with them.
This is not to suggest in any way that I endorse such effects... ;)
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I like sound but have a large enough layout that passes between two rooms so that the sound goes away with the trains. Even then I turn it off at times.
The soundcar units are interesting to me but the issue will be power pick-up. Before onboard sound in loco decoders I built several sound cars in baggage cars and boxcars. Cobbling up a power pickup was the biggest problem and in each case I hardwired a second car with electrical pickups to the soundcar for more dependable pickup. Putting them in my Metra cab cars used in push-pull commuter service should be easy because Kato has already provided power from the rail to the lights. It's the boxcars that will be tougher.
Is anybody aware of a good off-the-shelf pickup kit for a freight car truck? I'm running out of old Atlas smoothside passenger car pickups which is what I have been using.
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This is not to suggest in any way that I endorse such effects... ;)
Whew!! I was gettin' worried there for a minute! :D
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I'm really not the 'sound' type modeler (yet)...but this really intrigues me as background-style sound.
~Bruce
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But many of the other sounds simulated by the cars--wheel squeals, flat spots, brake rigging, etc.--should travel with them.
Again, speaker in the throttle's the way to go. Operator travels with train, holds trottle = sound traveling with train. Although, sounds like brake squeals con curves would probably be best served by using location sensors timing stationary sounds that fade with the coming and passing of a train at specific locations.
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I'm interested in it, but N scale sounds like many have said dont scale. How is that 3 inch car making a sound that loud?
One thing that would definitely be nice, and wasnt showing was the hiss of a FRED.
Though I laugh about sound in N and put it up right next to people that put the Kato lights in every one of their passenger cars, but no people, window shades, or even window tint. I just don't understand why put lights in there if you aren't but just showing off molded plastic interior.
Chris
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I'm interested in it, but N scale sounds like many have said dont scale. How is that 3 inch car making a sound that loud?
One thing that would definitely be nice, and wasnt showing was the hiss of a FRED.
Though I laugh about sound in N and put it up right next to people that put the Kato lights in every one of their passenger cars, but no people, window shades, or even window tint. I just don't understand why put lights in there if you aren't but just showing off molded plastic interior.
Chris
I'm in complete agreement with the 'sound doesn't scale'....
but...
I'll watch a train video with outrageous sound...fully understanding that the sound isn't scaling with the fact that the units on the monitor aren't actual size...
I'm just immersed in the sound...that's why, for ME, onboard sound doesn't 'float my boat'; I'm more a proponent of under the layout BIG sound, with subwoofer rumbles, notch 8 straining, brake squealing, etc...I detail the heck out of my tiny N scale engines and rolling stock, but I love the BIG sound....
~Bruce
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Get a powerful microphone a mixer and a stack of marshalls, place the mic under the N scale tracks :D :D
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A speaker under the table sound just like that. Maybe if you're partially deaf in one ear or something, you can convince your brain that the sound is coming from the locomotive. I can't. Having the sound come from somewhere other than the locomotive is just a distraction. I'll take scaled down tinny sound from the locomotive every time.
Honestly, I can give or take sound, but my sons go crazy for it. If we want to pass this all along to the next generation, we have to embrace sound as an important part of the future.
Jason
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Maybe a DJ setup where we could jerk a vinyl recording of LI Rosie trying to sing would make the right screeches .
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A speaker under the table sound just like that. Maybe if you're partially deaf in one ear or something, you can convince your brain that the sound is coming from the locomotive. I can't. Having the sound come from somewhere other than the locomotive is just a distraction. I'll take scaled down tinny sound from the locomotive every time.
Honestly, I can give or take sound, but my sons go crazy for it. If we want to pass this all along to the next generation, we have to embrace sound as an important part of the future.
Jason
The sound system that actually makes me sit up and take notice is Surroundtraxx....the subwoofer is pretty omnidirectional...and 8ohm speakers placed in 'sound blocks' just under the layout does a pretty good job of 'following' the loco(s) around the layout...big sound, no grinding of frames, all motive power powered...
~Bruce
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Permit me to add an observation: all this talk about sound on this and other threads, pro and con, with strong opinions, and very little about the setting, the stage, the context, in which sound, or lack thereof, might make sense. Yea, sound doesn't scale and it needs to be optimized for its setting or stage. An N-Trak layout in a convention hall, club layouts, home layouts large and small, display pikes, they all require a different approach IMHO, and in some settings, sound may indeed not be very realistic.
There's a lot of bad, tinny sound out there, fighting crowds and other sound-equipped trains, poor installs and poor decoders. Locos that are too loud or too unrealistic or not sync'd. Horrible whistles. Multiple trains competing for attention. I can see adding sound cars to this could be a migrane-inducing cacophony of noise and distraction. Aaaarghh...
But, on a moderately sized private layout, with a limited number of operators, sound can add an awesome dimension, to the point where I rarely run non-sound equipped trains... they look and feel like something out of a silent Buster Keaton movie (and I do love The General) and feel out of place. Of course, for best effect, one must have total control of the layout environment, including lighting, sight lines, and yes, sound lines and quality. By which I mean, throw away the crappy decoders and invest in Tsunamis and ESU's, and quality, properly BAFFLED speakers (see John Colombo's threads for inspiration and direction). Adjust the sound levels such that the sound is prominent enough close up but diminishes rapidly (sound doesn't scale). Steam whistles can be louder over distances. Get your operators to keep the chatter down and soak up the experience.... if they want to talk about cars or planes or taxes or women, they should do it in the lounge, with a beer if desired, outside the train room....:) For the same reason, I don't like ops that mix radio headsets with train sounds.... sensory overload. In my pre-radio TT&TO era, chatter is thankfully limited.
I can see a one or two-train display layout with an under the table thunder woofer for that "wow" effect, but not for a larger layout with multiple trains (Sound doesn't scale). On ghe opposite side of the spectrum, in large spaces at couty fairs and suchwith dozens or hundreds of people, sound gets marginalized, but so do our little trains. Of course lighting and presentation typically get an F, so why should sound fare any better under those circumstances?
One last (thankfully?) thought: technology is moving fast, and the progress recently made in both decoders and speaker quality is amazing. I can't but believe that N scale on-board sound will overcome its shortcomings in the near future much like N scale itself...:)
Of course, just my opinion; your mileage may vary....
Kind regards, Otto K.
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Permit me to add an observation: all this talk about sound on this and other threads, pro and con, with strong opinions, and very little about the setting, the stage, the context, in which sound, or lack thereof, might make sense. Yea, sound doesn't scale and it needs to be optimized for its setting or stage. An N-Trak layout in a convention hall, club layouts, home layouts large and small, display pikes, they all require a different approach IMHO, and in some settings, sound may indeed not be very realistic.
There's a lot of bad, tinny sound out there, fighting crowds and other sound-equipped trains, poor installs and poor decoders. Locos that are too loud or too unrealistic or not sync'd. Horrible whistles. Multiple trains competing for attention. I can see adding sound cars to this could be a migrane-inducing cacophony of noise and distraction. Aaaarghh...
But, on a moderately sized private layout, with a limited number of operators, sound can add an awesome dimension, to the point where I rarely run non-sound equipped trains... they look and feel like something out of a silent Buster Keaton movie (and I do love The General) and feel out of place. Of course, for best effect, one must have total control of the layout environment, including lighting, sight lines, and yes, sound lines and quality. By which I mean, throw away the crappy decoders and invest in Tsunamis and ESU's, and quality, properly BAFFLED speakers (see John Colombo's threads for inspiration and direction). Adjust the sound levels such that the sound is prominent enough close up but diminishes rapidly (sound doesn't scale). Steam whistles can be louder over distances. Get your operators to keep the chatter down and soak up the experience.... if they want to talk about cars or planes or taxes or women, they should do it in the lounge, with a beer if desired, outside the train room....:) For the same reason, I don't like ops that mix radio headsets with train sounds.... sensory overload. In my pre-radio TT&TO era, chatter is thankfully limited.
I can see a one or two-train display layout with an under the table thunder woofer for that "wow" effect, but not for a larger layout with multiple trains (Sound doesn't scale). On ghe opposite side of the spectrum, in large spaces at couty fairs and suchwith dozens or hundreds of people, sound gets marginalized, but so do our little trains. Of course lighting and presentation typically get an F, so why should sound fare any better under those circumstances?
One last (thankfully?) thought: technology is moving fast, and the progress recently made in both decoders and speaker quality is amazing. I can't but believe that N scale on-board sound will overcome its shortcomings in the near future much like N scale itself...:)
Of course, just my opinion; your mileage may vary....
Kind regards, Otto K.
A big +1!
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The added cost and work this new Soundtraxx product presents makes my idea of a sound system that features a single, quality throttle-based speaker(s) rather than multiple equipment-based, tinny speakers and decoders more sensible.
Isn't Kato working on a product like this?
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A big +1!
I'll balance this out with a big -1. Sorry, had to do that... :trollface: