TheRailwire
General Discussion => N and Z Scales => Topic started by: up1950s on October 23, 2012, 08:45:10 PM
-
Ok I had a change of mind and added a head light to my UP 819 powered by a modified Kato GS-4 chassis . I added Loon where no Loon had gone before to counter the lost Loon in adding a lite to the light front end . Well in doing so I put a rub on the gear tower U-Cup face . It was well hidden and I thought the problem was in the motor or the rods . In the process of trying to convince the wheels to turn I spun , or the motor spun the the gear on the only driven split axle with the TT's . I have tried to Krazy glue the metal half axles in that Engineering Plastic gear four times , only for it to slip out of quarter after less that a hour of up in the air testing . So I have some of these thoughts .....
1 Plead for help to save time .
2 Goo baby Goo .
3 Try that very expensive slipery plastic glue .
4 Epoxy
5 Rough up the steel and drill holes through the gear hubs so the Krazy glue has grippy places to hold on to.
What is your go to fix , and thanks in advance ?
-
I'd say make a flat spot on the shaft, a notch in the inside of the gear hub, line 'em up, and fill the newly-created space with epoxy. That should give you a "keyed" joint that won't slip.
My only concern with this would be making sure the epoxy goes in the space, and nowhere else...
-
Key way will likely not work due to quarting that needs to be perfect. That is why your driver has come loose. My advice would be to ruff up the axel and ruff up the driver bearing point so that super glue can grab onto both. Check quartering again..... Unfortunately, the drivers are no longer available from Kato.
-
Richie,
are you sure that the plastic axle tube is not split? I've heard of those splitting (on the Atlas forum). That would explain why the half-axles are slipping.
If not, then my way to taking care of this kind of slippage is to take a Dremel with a cutoff wheel (which I'll use as a precision grinding wheel) and either grind a shallow flat spot on the half-axles (as has been mentioned) or grind a very shallow spiral groove (simply roughen the surface) along the half-axles. Then find a way to roughen the inside of the plastic axle tube (you could just take a sharp #11 blade and make a series of scores along the length of the inside of the tube. Then make sure to thoroughly degrease all the parts (this is vital for a good bond!!) and glue the half-axles into the tube using super glue. Make sure you have them quartered properly. Good think that the quartering does not have to be aligned with the gear's teeth on this loco as that would make things very difficult.
-
yeah, cracked is the most likely.
the best fix is get a new axle.
I happen to know that Kato has no axles at the moment.
second best is to put a brass collar around the split plastic axle holder.
red loc-tite it together.
happy quartering.
-
I have no crack . I have seen lots of them on HO and N , but this is not cracked . Thanks for the responses so far
-
On such a critical joint that takes a lot of mechanical pressure, I would never trust super glue.
I second Victor's idea of using LocTite. That stuff can really hold.
But I think you need shear pins.
After you glue it, quarter it, and test it, let it get hard. THEN...
Drill and insert shear pins.
I would drill a small hole, perhaps .020" right through the plastic axle tube, right througn the metal
axle, and out the other side. You'll have to do it by hand with a pin vise and much patience, but it can be done. Drilling
through that axle will be no fun. Start with a nice sharp, new bit.
Having the thing all
glued together before you do this is important, so the tube doesn't slip while you are drilling.
Then, dip some .020" wire in super glue, epoxy, or anything like that, even more Loctite,
and shove it through the hole.
You'll need to drill and wire both axle tubes, of course.
Ain't no way that thing will slip after that. Better make sure the quartering and the gauge are right
before you glue/drill/pin.
I have joined two gears together to make compound gears for my K4 rebuilds this way. I was joining
delrin to delrin, or delrin to brass. And it was the main drive worm, so it takes all the mechanical
pressure. Not one has failed yet. But without shear pins, forget it.
-
Max, the GS-4 axles are *REALLY* thin. Something like 0.020"! Have you ever tried to drill a hole through a 0.020" steel rod?!
I also don't understand the thread lock thing. Why do you think that it has better shear strength than CA glue? After all, the thread lockers are designed to shear when the bolt is removed. They are designed to prevent the bold from loosening under vibration. Vibrations of threaded assemblies do not generate lots of shear forces on the thread locking compound.
Not to burst your bubble but thread locker compound is related to CA glue. It is Methacrylate ester. Here is the data sheet:
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/tds/T_LKR_GREEN_tds.pdf (http://www.loctiteproducts.com/tds/T_LKR_GREEN_tds.pdf)
Besides, even with all the shear strength I don't think that thread locker will have a strong bond with the slippery plastic used in the axle tubes. So a bond between the hardened compound and the plastic will shear very easily.
-
Loctite 609, Stud and bearing mount, is what I use for set-ups like that, as I have it in my machine shop. You may have to get it at a bearing supply company like Applied Industrial. MSC Supply, or McMaster/Carr also carry it. If it will hold a spinning bearing on a Bridgeport milling machine, it will hold that axle even though the surface area is small. Don't use it as a thread locker, you'll twist the head off before you break the thread bond. As aready stated, rough up the axle and tube. 609 is good for up to a .005 inch gap. Charley.
I was having no luck finding Loctite 601. Then I see the post was edited...
-
Sorry I'm "OLD" with a poor memory, I went in the shop and checked. It's 609, and is listed on the "Industrial" Henkel/Loctite site. Charley
Thanks, no problem. Just placed an order with Amazon.
-
check for a cracked axle.
no loc-tite, threadlocker, superglue will hold without a collar.
victor
-
Max, the GS-4 axles are *REALLY* thin. Something like 0.020"! Have you ever tried to drill a hole through a 0.020" steel rod?!
I also don't understand the thread lock thing. Why do you think that it has better shear strength than CA glue? After all, the thread lockers are designed to shear when the bolt is removed. They are designed to prevent the bold from loosening under vibration. Vibrations of threaded assemblies do not generate lots of shear forces on the thread locking compound.
Not to burst your bubble but thread locker compound is related to CA glue. It is Methacrylate ester. Here is the data sheet:
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/tds/T_LKR_GREEN_tds.pdf (http://www.loctiteproducts.com/tds/T_LKR_GREEN_tds.pdf)
Besides, even with all the shear strength I don't think that thread locker will have a strong bond with the slippery plastic used in the axle tubes. So a bond between the hardened compound and the plastic will shear very easily.
The advantage to thread lock is the flexibility. CA is just too brittle. The only analogy I can give is from flying foam RC airplanes. A lot of guys want to use "foam safe" CA to build and repair these planes. The problem is, the glue joint is more brittle than what it is gluing. The foam will fail, along the joint. The glue holds but the as the foam flexes, it cracks next to the joint because the joint can't flex. I prefer a less brittle glue, Epoxy, etc. for a more durable joint.
Also, CA just doesn't glue to steel very well, especially polished, hardened steel of the axles. Even after some knurling with a file, you can still scrape the glue off with your fingernail without too much effort.
-
I am trying 5 minute epoxy , applied at 11 am this morning . If that fails on tomorrows test I will buy some locktite . The metal axle is .040 . You know the eccentric pin though much larger in diameter is square on the end . Kato should have taken that design that they used on a non-critical function and applied it to the drive gear . But that's just me . It would have been fool proof . They treated the driven and traction tire axle with the same standards as the other 3 . It deserved more attention being that it was expected to do so much more work than the others .
-
hi up1950s
I hope the epoxy holds.
a couple of comments.
the axle design on this loco is a weakpoint
in that once it breaks, it is tough to get a good repair.
the concern for making sure it does not break in the first place
is a lot harder to justify.
another way to say that; how tough is the part or the drivetrain?
If the loco is dropped Kato is not responsible.
you are not the first to both stall the geared driver
and have the motor snap the gear loose from the axle.
my opinion is that the drivetrain should be stout enough
to stall the motor under those circumstances.
I will give Kato some credit in that I did test the
motor and gears by stalling the axle
so I believe the motor can't break BOTH drivers loose at the same time.
I am pretty sure the motor and gears can pop one side loose.
Kato's design is very close to will not fail.
Since the drive-train can 'pop an axle,'
I know not to run the loco with only one traction tire
and take some care when running and testing to use only half the throttle.
the one case I have met, the plastic axle was cracked.
-
The epoxy might hold. But with a .040" axle, it should be possible to drill a hole in there. It would
be a little tedious, but possible.
The thing about epoxy on those smooth plastic surfaces is that even when it seems to be strong,
it has a tendency to "peel" right off sometimes. If you roughened it up a little, that will help.
I have tried ACC on worm/axle and other situations where I use LocTite or JB Weld. The ACC has never
held well for me. In general, ACC hasn't ever worked on anything for me for the reason Tony cited: it is
just too brittle. Any sharp rap on the joint and it breaks. I did use it on my brass TrainCat bridge model,
and it seemed to do okay. But I reenforced a lot of the larger more critical joints with some JB.
-
0.040" (um, 0.03937" to be exact) is 1mm. If you can drill through a 1mm steel axle then you are pretty darn good! Also remember that you'll be drilling through the plastic axle tube first. If you aren't in perfect alignment then you'll miss going through the metal axle.
What size hole you propose to drill through it (as not to weaken it too much)?
-
0.040" (um, 0.03937" to be exact) is 1mm. If you can drill through a 1mm steel axle then you are pretty darn good! Also remember that you'll be drilling through the plastic axle tube first. If you aren't in perfect alignment then you'll miss going through the metal axle.
What size hole you propose to drill through it (as not to weaken it too much)?
I am not going to drill baby drill . I always can get a new drive wheel assembly for 150.00 bucks or so , comes with a complete set of GS-4 parts for free . I comshawed (sp) this mechanism from my museum roster . I could put a dummy in the museum collection .
-
I am not going to drill baby drill . I always can get a new drive wheel assembly for 150.00 bucks or so , comes with a complete set of GS-4 parts for free . I comshawed (sp) this mechanism from my museum roster . I could put a dummy in the museum collection .
I was able to get 2 of them damaged, one was attacked with a soldering iron, the other suffered from "Old-Bachman-itius" like my first one, but the non-geared axel tubes were the culprit. Call Kato directly and see if you can get a whole new driver set. I was missing a light tube, and needed one more axel, and was able to get one from them directly, when it showed out of stock on their parts page.
-
just a comment on the 2 part epoxy, 5 min variants have inferior strength to the slower setting varieties.
-
If it is hardened steel, it will be very difficult, I agree. It's .040", so I would go with something like
.016.
You are correct, that it would be hard to do.
I just don't have a good feeling about it holding up without something mechanical, beyond the glue.
I'm just telling you that if it
were mine, I would try to drill a pin through there. But no point discussing or arguing about this. Go ahead and see if the epoxy holds. If it does, then good on ya.
-
Update , the epoxy didn't dry hard enough for some unknown reason . I did a 50/50 mix . I rechecked for a crack and found none . I figured I had little to lose so I flattened the axle ends a bit like a canoe paddle , but not that much . To deter cracking the gear hubs I used a section of brass tubing which is Krazy Glued over it . That increase in the diameter of the female axle tube composite would not fit in the chassis slot , which I knew ahead of time . So I had from the inside of the frame halves counter bored the axle slot area almost to the bearing retaining tabs . I did a check with the motor to make sure it worked without the drivers in place . I then removed the geared axle and pressed in one driver with Krazy Glue making sure the axle was true by eye . I let that dry a few hours , that then repeated then other side but checking quarter and gauge over and over . After few hours I rechecked function and checked for torque with my finger on the whirling drivers , left , right , and both , in both directions . There was some slight hiccup in the rotation , nothing that a break in wouldn't cure , So I decided to park the 9V battery and get out the power pack . All was working ok so I spooled it up a bit , about 3/4 throttle , then I thumbed the racing driver a bit to break it in . Well the skinny a$$ universal drive shaft twisted into 2 pieces . I managed to adapt a Kato E-8 drive shaft whose motor hex end was perfect , the shaft length was about the same but I did need to lop off the center pin from the end of the hex end . The shaft diameter is more robust as is ball and pins . I needed to slice the ball and pins to a continuation of the shaft . Note that the E-8 gear tower shaft is bigger in diameter , and the worm on the GS-4 is more TPI than the coarser E-8 worm , so swapping out is a no go . I then drilled through the gear tower female coupling / drive shaft and pinned it with brass wire . I glued it all together as the alignment of the motor/drive shaft / gear tower are exactly aligned or close enough that the motor end free movement will be good enough . I will wait till tomorrow to give it more of my man handling . Trainland sent me a email today and they have Kato GS-4's going for 145.00 , one will be delivered to me tomorrow . I need to do any transplants the patient wont complain as it is slated for museum display only .
-
Wow Richie - you really like to *MANHANDLE* your locos! I don't think Kato GS-4 was designed for this. It is a fragile loco. I also don't understand why you want to make it *THAT* robust. As-is, it will pull plenty of cars and if you do overload it, then it will just spin its drivers on the track (maybe even throw a traction tire). I'm speechless.
-
.... um.... :scared:
remind me to keep you away from the TnT sticks...
Hi up1950s
the good news is that Kato still has the driveshafts for sale.
and that little motor has a lot of torque. dammm.
you have some thing else wrong with that loco. somewhere.
that shaft should not have failed.
check that. it may have failed when the axle was popped
and was not noticed and when the load returned it finished failing.
still that loco seems to have a problem. the fix holds.
no wobble means it is straight. good work!
now find the real reason it failed the first time....
believe me, I want to know.
victor
-
I am mid way to a cure of the slip out of quarter lockup hell . I soldered the 3 driver rods on each side together . Now I just have to fine tune it by reaming the holes just a touch bigger , I already increased them from .035 to .042 on drivers 1 , 3, and 4 Works but I think a touch more slop might help . I would much rather take the time to locate the exact driver and side than to ream them all . With this deal the drivers can't slip even if they are loose . I also works better than it ever did before , or as good .
-
I think I am going to hide the lighter as well.
hi up1950s
you have soldered the siderods together?!?
please tell me you are joking.
are you aware the driver centers are removable?
ok they pop loose from the metal part of the driver when I try to pull the crank pin.
sometimes.
is the slip there ?
victor
-
Ok...... Ive read Richie's post mutiple times, perhaps he is serious. Glad you bought another GS-4 for replacement parts!
-
hi superturbine,
I think the new loco is because this one became 'parts'...
I am at a loss for solutions. the things up1950s says he has done are
throughly unbelieveable to me.
he is good at reporting accurately so I believe what he says.
but I can't figure out what went wrong.
victor
-
I think I am going to hide the lighter as well.
hi up1950s
you have soldered the siderods together?!?
please tell me you are joking.
are you aware the driver centers are removable?
ok they pop loose from the metal part of the driver when I try to pull the crank pin.
sometimes.
is the slip there ?
victor
Yeah , I found the plastic outer centers are pop outable because one flipped its lid all by its self . They have a back side molded on pin which keeps them aligned with the with the see-through metal backing . They are not the problem , the problem is there isn't enough friction on the outside of a 1MM shaft that only sticks in a hole about 3/16 of an inch or so . Same holds true with the coupling at the gear tower . They either needed a larger diameter shaft which would have more SNAPI ( square gnats asses per inch ) for a grippier fit , and or a robust mechanical torque lock which would automatically create and maintain quarter . The soldering of the 3 driver rods end to end on each side stops any out of quartering from happening . The end result is it looks the same and is more reliable on a design that is prone to quartering problems . Sometimes dumbing down to old school methods is the way to go . Adding individual driver rods is a nice touch on Kato's part but that apparently requires a quarter fail proof design . You no doubt could fix this the proper way , to Kato specs or better , but I am stuck with this dope under my hat . He's family , and I don't want him to feel too useless as not to try something , be it a fools endeavor or a interesting fix worth remembering . :oops:
-
Knock on wood but my GS-4 just did another 5 hour tour last weekend on the Ntrak layout pulling the full 18 car Daylight without a hitch. Mine was from the original release which for some reason didn't seem to have these issues. It seems like the cracked axle problems arrived with the second batch.
-
:-D fear not! I live with a dope under my hat also.
you are doing as good as any of us.
my first fix recomendation for this issue is new Kato parts.
For a lot of the reasons you are encountering.
this is not an easy fix. in addition to making a brass collar and milling the frame
there is the quartering job which has little room for error.
I really like the "square gnats asses per inch" measurement.
'cause kato sure uses a lot to get that job done.
and if even one of them lets go.... its gnat asses everywhere!
call Kato on Monday and plead for a set of drivers
and get a new set of side rods.
point them to this thread and let them know you tried to fix it first.
maybe they will have mercy on you.
victor
-
I got the new GS-4 today from Trainland , and rods and some other parts from Kato came today as well .
-
The reason all the drive rods were separate was not cosmetic! Because this loco (just like the real counterpart) actually has some of the drivers either sprung to in eleongated axle holes, those drivers move up and down. This is done for maximum electric pickup and pulling power. The drivers also have lots of side to side play (to be able to traverse sharp curves). I suspect that if the siderod is now a single stiff piece, this pretty much makes that special suspension non-functional (or it will start binding even more).
:facepalm: :facepalm: Sometimes I just don't get what people do or how they "fix" things! Bring on the duct tape! :facepalm: :facepalm:
-
oh peteski...
I may have to take your lighter also
for manhandling some ones' feelings.
as repairs go, often there are undesireable results.
he did what he felt was a good way to repair.
the sprung driver will be less effective
but if that takes the load off the broken axle
how is that not a good repair?
victor
-
Hey UP1950's .......... I am proud of you boy ......... I like the way you have gone about learning how to solve this problem of yours, even if the end solution is a trip to the LHS ......... your willingness to not give up is admirable. Any criticism is just not justified in my opinion (how can you improve if you don't have a go). I have enjoyed the reporting on the saga of your endeavors and look forward to more of your tales of adventures in train land ...... what do they say ....... what does not kill us only makes us stronger. Some of the offered solutions have kept me enthralled. Thanks for the tale of the slipping wheel.
-
oh peteski...
I may have to take your lighter also
for manhandling some ones' feelings.
as repairs go, often there are undesireable results.
he did what he felt was a good way to repair.
the sprung driver will be less effective
but if that takes the load off the broken axle
how is that not a good repair?
victor
Victor, after all the years on the Atlas forum you should know my personality. I have no problem with speaking my mind. :trollface: Especially when presenting facts (like describing the GS-4's running gear design).
The sprung suspension in the GS-4 is *VITALLY* important for maximizing its electric pickup and pulling power. The side play is not very important if it doesn't traverse wide curves. BTW< from what I understand, the broken axle was *THE* (only) powered axle in that loco. That axle and the 1st axle are the only ones which are rigidly suspended in the frame (no up and down movement). The 2nd and 4th drivers are not contributing to the pulling power (just electric pickup). That is why they have sprung suspension (so they can always softly contact the rails). This is a superb (although fragile) mechanical design on Kato's part.
IN the end, what Richie does to his model is his business but that won't stop me from criticizing what he did. I'm not just blowing smoke - I provided facts as to why what he did is not optimal for this model's performance.
-
The thing is not sprung , those 2 are floaters .
-
The thing is not sprung , those 2 are floaters .
Richie,
The #4 driver should be sprung. It has a phosphorbronze leaf spring over top of each axle bearing on the rear axle. The #4 driver is sprung just enough to keep the loco from nosing under load. It is actually a very good design albeit very fragile.
-
Yes, it is what Tony stated. #4 is sprung but #2 is floating - I know that but forgot that #2 had no springing (it is allowed to freely flat up and down). :oops:
-
2 minutes go while grinding the inside of the frames on the other 3 axles to make clearance for brass tubes to incase the plastic axles I noticed the notched area around the number 4 axle . I found one of the leaf springs , the other is AWAL , but I will find it . Don't know if I will use that system though . The geared and brass sleeved axle is the most secure out of the four that's why I am slaving the other 3 . The process of pushing the rod pins in bends the wheel in the axle enough to loosen it a bit , thus causing problems . My plan is to make the axles almost but not too rigid with the geared TT a touch proud of the others . Side play is also desired . I don't know how much modeling I can do if I am swept out to sea , as I am just ten feet above sea level , the basement is less than that , and the swamps are a few blocks away .
-
get a biig sump pump a pile o sand bags and put the generator on the roof.
only the high waves can swamp you then.
luck, sir.
hi up1950s
did your missing spring get caught in a driver and cause the axle to pop?
on to conjectures
the gs-4 has some flaws in the design of the axle construction.
It depends on good quality manufacturing to remain functional.
The way Kato designed the flexability between the drivers and the frame
is a good way to solve the 'traction' problem most n-scale steam has.
lets call the whole thing a suspension system.
so when you combine the two ideas.
I find I am wondering what Kato had in mind.
Kato knows how to build stout and bullet proof locos.
They are quite willing to push technical limits
I have guesses and they are not satisfying.
victor
-
Here is the ingenious Kato's GS-4 design.
(http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u449/peteski7/Railwire/KatoGS-4_design01.png)
This drawing is approximate, just to demonstrate how the mechanism is designed. The wheels shown in green support the loco's weight. The transparent gray wheels are cosmetic. The gray driver wheels do pick up power while the trailing truck is strictly cosmetic. The approximate center of gravity is somewhere between #2 and #3 drivers.
The red arrows show the proportion of the loco's weight supported by each set of wheels. As far as weight distribution, this loco acts like 0-4-0 loco. The leading truck and the #4 (lightly sprung) driver support a negligible amount of loco's weight, the #1 drivers support a larger percentage of the weight but the majority of the weight is supported by #3 driver. The #3 driver is the only driven driver, and it also has the traction tires. Thanks to this design, this loco has a surprisingly great pull!
I agree that the very thin driver axles are not IMO best design (as they can bend relatively easily) but overall, this is an excellent and innovative design.
-
if you have the front truck in that, you need to add the 4th axle as sprung also.
once that is done....
what reasons does kato have for making the axles the way they did AND
that helps the suspension system work?
I have guesses and they seem lacking.
victor
ETA to ask the question I had in mind....
-
if you have the front truck in that, you need to add the 4th axle as sprung also.
once that is done....
what reasons does kato have for making the axles the way they did AND
that helps the suspension system work?
I have guesses and they seem lacking.
victor
ETA to ask the question I had in mind....
Done!
I suspect that the small diameter axles were chosen to reduce the overall friction of the mechanism. Larger axles would have more friction. It has nothing to do with how well the suspension works. But that is just a guess on my part.
-
So before I bother to cut 3 new plastic axles to shove put 2 brass collars on each a thought came to me . Plastic has failed this many times for me , the steels axles will stay I think . What if I substituted the plastic for a wood dowel , still brass collard , but the thought is the Krazy Glue will soak into the wood and maybe make a better bond to the axle . The bearings take all the friction . The glue should make the wood lube proof . Your thoughts ?
-
Richie,
the plastic used in the original axle/gear piece is quite strong. It splits because it is unable to withstand the pressure of the metal axle pushed into it.
I thought that you would just place and glue the brass sleeves over the original split axles. That would have closed the split and prevent any further splitting. But this sounds like you will make entire new hollow-tube axles. What type of plastic will you be using? Styrene? Lexan? Delrin? I don't know if wood will be any stronger (as far as resistance to splitting goes. It is an unusual solution for sure. You do think out of the box! Wood will not give you any better bond to the steel axle. The weakest bond is on the surface of the steel (no matter what msterial is used for the axle tube).
Several years ago a plastic knob on my clothes drier also had a split sleeve (where the timer shaft plugs in). Part of the sleeve actually separated. I super-glued the piece back on then I took a heavy thread and wrapped it tightly around the width of the mended sleeve. Then I impregnated the thread with superglue. That repair is still holding!
-
One day I will get my act together and then I will rule the world.
Buwahahahahahah
Hi up1950s and peteski,
lets examine the requirements of the parts involved
the axles are held together by plastic axle holders.
the plastic of the axle holders seems strong enough to hold the axles together
so it does seem to be able hold against the pressures in this service.
failures seem to be caused by driver jams and the motor powering the failure.
there can be other causes, no doubt. so a case can be made that
the plastic is not strong enough if the motor can power a reaming.
what plastic can be used that will hold in this service I do not know.
practical considerations are that
when an axle set breaks and a driver falls off,
only one of two things can have happened.
the axle holder broke or got reamed out.
the two problems are only a little different
in that what works on the crack may not work on the reamed holder.
Here is a little known property of red loc-tite.
It expands a little as it cures. (magic to me)
for a reamed out axle holder life is easy,
put a little red in there and quarter it.
clean up the extra and wait a few hours.
often the trick is getting the stuff into a tight fit hole
as it will get wiped off of the parts.
A hand press is a wee bit tight for it.
It helps to clean the metal parts with acetone.
The cracked axle holder is a lot harder to fix because
something has to be installed to take the pressure.
Thus the brass collar or kevlar string.
I use a collar because I want the collar to press the crack shut.
if you get a snug fit with the collar, use red loc-tite to
attach the collar to the axle holder. let it cure which should press the crack shut
and then finish the fix by (pray) pressing the axle back together with the proper quartering.
If it is still loose, put the red loc-tite into the axle holder
just the same as if the axle holder had been reamed.
In all of this the toughest part is getting the quartering just right.
super-glue is good stuff, red loc-tite may have come from super-glue technology
and there is no way they can do each other's job.
blue is great for holding flywheels that are a little loose
and I have not tried green, mostly because I have not tripped over it yet.
-
A nice thing about the green (or a curse... more on that later)... is it is specifically designed to be used
AFTER the parts are put together. It gets drawn into the joint, much like liquid styrene cement does.
This can be very handy for awkward situations where you can't put a drop on and then put the parts together,
or when you've go something slipping, and you just want to put a drop on it and not disturb or disassemble the parts.
I've been using it on metal-to-metal worms, and on plastic driver centers over metal shafts. It seems to hold like iron.
In fact (and here's the cursing part), be careful what you wish for with this stuff. If a drop inconveniently finds its way,
say, into the shaft bearing at the exit of a motor, and that motor is a $50 maxon with a nice
gearhead, well, we don't need to revisit that incident.
I will say, I'm not 100% positive how it would do on slippery Delrin, although it does a great job on slippery Trix K4 drivers
on their metal axles.
-
I am back , Sandy had my sewer pipe back up for 12 hours , blocked that with The Clog Buster except for 15 gallons or so , at the expense of my Water/Sewer bill ( kind of like being shot in cold blood and the same party is suing me for the warm blood I spilled . 2 hours later I lost Con Ed , Time Warner , and Verizon . Still waiting on Verizon . :facepalm:
Tomorrow I will go to the auto parts store and get me some red and green lok-tite , they ought to have it . I will do some tests to see which one I will try on the real deal . Thanks for the replies/help . I will make new axle thingys as the OEM have been through hell and back with all the attempts and failures . Delrin , or some other more glue friendly plastic , Evergreen is too soft IMO . :)
-
acetone.
if at all possible.
a loooong soak will free the parts.
one of the reasons I am very careful with loc-tite
If I can, I oil any bearing near the joint.
there is time to fix a goof ... if you notice it. that is a darned big if.
I managed to get a side-rod attached to a driver once.
... what is holding this loco in place?....
victor
-
This is just a thought from days dealing with old Jeep transmission cases/transfer cases. Could you not notch a spot on the steel axle then use a pin through the wheel. It would serve two purposes, to provide a lock on the wheel to the axle, and to keep the axles "in time"? Combine it with all the other whiz-bang with the loc-tite it would hold for a liftime. It's precision microsurgery but could work.
The S.
-
This is just a thought from days dealing with old Jeep transmission cases/transfer cases. Could you not notch a spot on the steel axle then use a pin through the wheel. It would serve two purposes, to provide a lock on the wheel to the axle, and to keep the axles "in time"? Combine it with all the other whiz-bang with the loc-tite it would hold for a liftime. It's precision microsurgery but could work.
The S.
The alignment would be beyond my abilities , and it would be needed on both side of all axles . I went to than auto parts today , walked in , no lights , 3 guys talking about water with nothing coming out of the sump pump hose leading out of the front door . I didn't bother to ask if they were open . I just walked back out . Went across the neighboring boarder into Nassau , road washed away , a tree down on every 3rd side street , and every traffic light wasn't working at all , only 1 out of the 20 or so we crossed that a cop , and he really wasn't really a cop , and what I thought was his car had Jersey plates . He did an excellent job at that busy spot . Needless to say the lok-tite wasn't bought today . Another power outage for 4 hours , but when it came back so did my Verizon . I know how my telephone feeds from , but there were no trucks on its 5 block route . Must have been re-feed differently than it used to , but I saw nothing so damaging close by that would effect all 3 of my services , strange .
-
Ok for thread continuity I will post this hear as well as on the Weekend Update tomorrow .
First thanks for all the help in this mess . I think this will work once I get it together .
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-5wDKahNZBF8/UKWbR0_BxwI/AAAAAAAAOS8/40dE21QR6zw/s800/x%20819%202012-11-14%20e.JPG)
As mentioned earlier the side rods are now one piece . I took apart the driven wheel and applied the same method to it as above . The driven wheel has that collared gear . I drilled clear through the collar and after assembly truing , gauging , and quartering I will re drill through with the axle in place and pin with green Loc-tite when the mess works with the rods attached .
Again thanks for your help .
-
Thanks for the update. Carbon fiber tube? Wow! I thought I was bad, but this is probably the highest level of over-engineering I have ever witnessed in an N scale loco! Sweet! 8)
It would be interesting to know how many GS-4s are out there still running with unmodified axles? I suspect the number is in thousands.
-
It would be interesting to know how many GS-4s are out there still running with unmodified axles? I suspect the number is in thousands.
I have another that I haven't touched yet . :scared:
-
in a case of who will keep the talley....
I have one kato gs-4 that visited for repair.
Kato had the parts so I didn't repair the axle.
so we KNOW the count is at 2.
I have heard of at least one other so we may be pretty sure of three.
the real telling of the story is that the axle sets are no longer available.
:-) more than 3 have cracked...
victor
-
Carbon Fiber tube may conduct electricity. We have to worry about it in electric planes and heli's. A carbon frame heli can create a faraday cage and keep the radio signal from reaching a receiver mounted inside the frame.
-
Carbon Fiber tube may conduct electricity. We have to worry about it in electric planes and heli's. A carbon frame heli can create a faraday cage and keep the radio signal from reaching a receiver mounted inside the frame.
Crap , now I need to find a Hamster sized Tampax tube . :facepalm:
-
Couldn't find a retail source for the tube , but I did find and ordered from a retail source for something I can drill out , fiberglass rods . http://www.goodwinds.com/merch/list.shtml?cat=fiberglass.solidfiberglass
I also ordered this ideal OD .125 , but undersized ID .070 tube to drill out to .095 .
http://www.goodwinds.com/goodwinds/merch/list.shtml?cat=fiberglass.pultrudedfiberglasstubing
-
oh this is getting more and more painful.
ummm
I will call Kato on Monday and BEG them to send me a set of axles.
that way you can let this poor axle die a fair and valiant death.
most fiberglass rod is not wrapped around the outside
so there wil be nothing keeping it from cracking.
maybe you know of a source other than kitemaking.
any chance you can find ABS rod?
victor
-
Vic , fret not , I also ordered Delrin rod last night . I really don't want to use the Kato OEM stuff . Too many points of failure for my mis-handeling mitts . Thanks for the tip on the Fiberglass , I will still see if I can make it work , if for no other reason than knowledge of limitations of the stuff .
-
Okay, now I want to know where you found Delrin tubing?
As I read your saga, I went off and looking for fiberglass tubing, but I couldn't find it in the size that
you did. It will be tricky to bore it out true, but since it is already bored, you can probably do it... the existing
bore will probably guide your bit and it will work.
As for the fiberglass coming apart, I noted on that website that they say this tubing is pultruded, which means it is
fibers coated with resin to form the tube, as opposed to just drawing it through something. So maybe it will not
splinter.
Wow... I have to say, I've chopped up and reassmbled and bashed things together in my day, but this is way beyond
what I'd do to save this engine. I don't mean to discourage you, by the way. I applaud you for digging and investigating.
-
Delrin:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/hman16/m.html?item=190715242689&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c6783a8c1&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562
I have a stick for the lathe, but I haven't used it yet.
-
The Delrin is a rod Max , as for the Fiberglass tube , it is the first one on that list . I just took a Delrin or Delrin like axle gear , I think it was from a Atlas GP-7 in HO . I was able to knock down the OD to .125 , and the ID was almost perfect with just a few file strokes . Well it split while truing the wheels . Not totally upset with the split . as I wasn't being exactly gentle , and the forces were not what the wheel would impart while running . I will continue as soon is re-composure sets in . :RUEffinKiddingMe:
-
Keep in mind that splitting of the plastic axle tubes or gears (Kato, Bachmann or any other manufacturers) does not happen upon initial installation of the axle in a tight fitting tube (like it happened to you). The cracking occurs after years of constant low pressure from a metal axle. It is more of a fatigue crack than a quick catastrophic failure from ill fitting parts.
You might be fighting windmills here. How about using telescoping metal (brass) tubes for your axle. For the inside tube use one 2 sizes smaller then use CA impregnated paper rolled on that tube for insulator. That should result in a robust axle.
-
Keep in mind that splitting of the plastic axle tubes or gears (Kato, Bachmann or any other manufacturers) does not happen upon initial installation of the axle in a tight fitting tube (like it happened to you). The cracking occurs after years of constant low pressure from a metal axle. It is more of a fatigue crack than a quick catastrophic failure from ill fitting parts.
You might be fighting windmills here. How about using telescoping metal (brass) tubes for your axle. For the inside tube use one 2 sizes smaller then use CA impregnated paper rolled on that tube for insulator. That should result in a robust axle.
That paper insulator crossed my mind , but I want to pin the bridging axle and that becomes another mess . I will succeed with something . This weekend I am free , so far , and will maybe try other plastics I have . I may have to take off the outermost tube and sacrifice the added glue area , but gain final tube wall thickness . Something will work .
EDIT today
The more I thought about removing the second brass tube , the more I liked that idea , so this morning I did just that . Now the six half wheels with bearings and axles are .062 ish . More glue surface area than the OEM wire axles , and now more wall thickness allowable for the half axles bridging insulating tube . In the process of pealing the outer soldered tube off the inner tube some axles in the wheels got loose ,and one inner tube pealed off with the outer tube . These are Red Loc-tite drying today . Hopefully , and pretty confidently , this will solve the split problem , if not I will collar the bridging tube .
-
So you did end up using a paper insulator? Excellent! :D The KISS principle works again!
-
So you did end up using a paper insulator? Excellent! :D The KISS principle works again!
No , had I used a paper insulator , then a brass tube over that it would be ok , but I plan on drilling through the bridging tube and the chance on that locking pin hitting the brass on both sides is almost 100% .
-
No , had I used a paper insulator , then a brass tube over that it would be ok , but I plan on drilling through the bridging tube and the chance on that locking pin hitting the brass on both sides is almost 100% .
:facepalm:
-
:facepalm:
I wondered when peteski would make a post I would not question.
strange when one see such a question answered.
Hi up1950s,
you seem to be locked into a battle to the death with that driver/axle set.
.... the part I can tell is which will win.
I am going to call Kato on Monday. one 'o you two needs to be saved.
victor
-
I wondered when peteski would make a post I would not question.
strange when one see such a question answered.
Hi up1950s,
you seem to be locked into a battle to the death with that driver/axle set.
.... the part I can tell is which will win.
I am going to call Kato on Monday. one 'o you two needs to be saved.
victor
Thanks , but don't bother using a " get put of jail card " on me Vic . I already have a GS-4 on hand stated for static museum display on the layout I don't have . If I come to a dead end I will cannibalize . I feel confident I will be able to convince this to work . I am in the process of quartering the driven driver as soon as my new fangled quartering arms dry on both driver faces . Please let me continue , and thanks for all the advice .
-
Richie you are a man on a mission! Don't let anything stop you until you are satisfied. 8)
-
Richie you are a man on a mission! Don't let anything stop you until you are satisfied. 8)
...or until Richie's GS-4 is turned into an armored loco, complete with Titanium and depleted Uranium armor! ;)
-
k...
I called Kato ....
begged...
pleaded...
a broken axle should be on its way
In the mean time I did another fix to this one
the axle is curing as I write.
I'll test it on the morrow If I get a chance.
a couple o photos
I hope you can see the crack.
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c301/kv-ironworks/k-gs-4/100_0206.jpg)
with collars
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c301/kv-ironworks/k-gs-4/100_0212.jpg)
-
Simple and elegant solution Victor! But you didn't pin the axes! :trollface:
If you rough-handle your loco, the drivers might get out of quarter.
-
I guess pins in the collar are possible....
I am not yet ready to declare victory.
Kato Kelley said that red loc-tite did not hold
when they tried it.
so I am giving the axle a little while to cure.
I have done this repair before and it did hold.
I also have done this to a b-mann northern.
that leads me to think this one will hold.
another item of note is that red loc-tite can be tricky
in that I have had it fail to hold and
had to re-do the joint. I just reapplied the loc-tite with success.
I have no real ideas for the different outcomes.
this fix requires a lathe.
lets see if it does hold in service before going into
repair specifics.
victor
-
I guess pins in the collar are possible....
I am not yet ready to declare victory.
Kato Kelley said that red loc-tite did not hold
when they tried it.
so I am giving the axle a little while to cure.
I have done this repair before and it did hold.
I also have done this to a b-mann northern.
that leads me to think this one will hold.
another item of note is that red loc-tite can be tricky
in that I have had it fail to hold and
had to re-do the joint. I just reapplied the loc-tite with success.
I have no real ideas for the different outcomes.
this fix requires a lathe.
lets see if it does hold in service before going into
repair specifics.
victor
A flat spot on the axle and use set screws would shore that up. ;)
The S.
-
guys,
I am going to declare victory.
it pulls 30 cars and it will slip if I hold the train.
The axle didn't break free.
I quartered it by eye .... three of the axles are loose, so If I missed, I can compensate.
fodder for another day.
he first time I did this I had a bit of tubing that was very near 2.5 mm
but I could not find that . I ordered some 2.5mm brass outside diameter for the rest of the axles
the collars are a light press fit .
I did not loc-tite them and the axle was lightly sanded.
I put the loctite in the hole and on the axle. I was not generous,
I used just enough to be sure all parts were buttered.
there was time to adjust the quartering after I pressed the axles together.
the collars are why this works, the loc-tite has something to press against.
victor
-
I have always quartered by eye in the past , but I am trying this simple method I thought up . Probable been used by others , but I never say it . A .025 PB wire in bent on the end to stick into the crank pin hole , then aligned over the axle center and centered to the other side by a bit point in the driver disk web design . I then trued and gauged the wheels in a close to quarter position . I then Krazy glue both ends of the wire . We all know we can break away the Krazy glue off of metal and engineering plastic , even when we don't want to . I then took a 2x2 block of pre-determined to be square enough , and sanded a corner off . That allowed the driver whiskers to touch the block closer in to the driver tread . I then trued and gauged the wheels in a close to quarter position . Then I placed the set on the block making sure both whiskers were flat against the block their whole length ( without bending ) I snuck some green Lok-tite where the axle meets the collared gear hub . I let that dry and re-applied more green Lok-tite , and freed any bearing resistance that some green Loc-tite may have caused from the first application . I then drilled through holes and pinned with a good pre-soaking of green Loc-tite . I also re-freed the bearing from the second application of green Loc-tite . After that dried a day I ground down the pin overage to the collar , and applied another coat of green Loc-tite , and addressed any bearing freeze again . When that all dried another day I addressed the bearing again and made sure it was good to go . Lastly I removed the quartering whiskers carefully as I intend to reuse them on the other 3 drivers once my rods and tubes come in the mail . The good thing about this is even if the drivers are a blond one out of quarter , they all are , and thus mater not . Time will tell .
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-pEdNBvc-32E/UK_npYXcdVI/AAAAAAAAOT8/_UETAKwxnBU/s800/x%20819%202012-11-19%20Quartering%20attempt%20a%201024.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-u46yAj-zCRU/UK_npuqi2LI/AAAAAAAAOUA/YHMtRW6JC-w/s800/x%20819%202012-11-19%20Quartering%20attempt%20b%201024.jpg)
-
As of 10 minutes ago I am no longer going to try to make the FEF-1 powered . Though I have cured the wheel to axle slip , and the bushing to axle slip , and the motor to worm slip , the lack of exact alignment of all those cures causes problems . To boot the main driver gear has wear in one place that causes the worm to slip . I have worked on it almost every day for months on and off . I have come up with a decent way to quarter and align multi part axles while the glue dries ( below ) . I have learned a lot in this given up process . I have a new GS-4 and it's so darn nice I don't want to cannibalize from it . I need to move on , but before I do I need to finish this as a dummy . I will make it a free wheeler dummy that can be a roundhouse queen being pushed to an fro by a goat , or used as a double header with a headlight . I am not going to blame Kato for using too small diameter axle , drive shaft , worm shaft , or the use of plastic gears , and traction tires that are too soft . But if they address those issues on future models of any type they may get me to buy again . I live and learn , will they ? :oops: :( :x :o :? :RUEffinKiddingMe:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Aqi0CK1t-PM/UROxJFQ1unI/AAAAAAAAOks/Oa1JivoyXn4/s800/GS-4%20Axle%20Allignment%20glue%20jig%20a.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-06CwoM92wiE/UROxI7dpB2I/AAAAAAAAOkk/3iXpdKOr0I4/s800/GS-4%20Axle%20Allignment%20glue%20jig%20b.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-DtpGhwwgkWI/UROxI49OeSI/AAAAAAAAOkg/AW-KdBbH_a8/s800/GS-4%20Axle%20Allignment%20glue%20jig%20c.jpg)
-
I for one am sad to see the great work you did not shine with all it's glory. My own take on it is who really cares about the pristine GS4.... she has plenty of sisters. Your FEF-1 only has 4 in her class.
-
I for one am sad to see the great work you did not shine with all it's glory. My own take on it is who really cares about the pristine GS4.... she has plenty of sisters. Your FEF-1 only has 4 in her class.
But mine will be a one of a kind . How many dummy FEF-1's do you know of . Sides , I can always revisit the problem child as nothing gets undone except that which can be popped back in easilyish . I for one am sad to see the great work you did not shine with all it's glory. My own take on it is who really cares about the pristine GS4.... she has plenty of sisters. Your FEF-1 only has 4 in her class.
But mine will be a one of a kind . How many dummy FEF-1's do you know of . Sides , I can always revisit the problem child as nothing gets undone except that which can be popped back in easilyish .
-
So good, it was worth saying twice, eh Richie? :D
-
So good, it was worth saying twice, eh Richie? :D
I just wanted to finish the slippage thread . Then give the steam thread some air time . Once these threads split up forever the double post will make more sense , at least to me .