TheRailwire
General Discussion => N and Z Scales => Topic started by: bbussey on September 20, 2011, 09:33:52 AM
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Due to some procedural issues with the rendering process, ESM products through Shapeways are suspended until further notice. Once the issues have been resolved, the ESM products will be made available.
The White Tower restaurant launch also will be delayed until the procedural issue is resolved. Hopefully the delay will only be a few days.
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I take it you can not order specific orientation?
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I can't speak for Bryan, but I've noticed a lot of problems with the site in the past week or so...
Clearly growth pains, but on the other hand they need to have a little more predictability and consistency... IMHO...
- Lou
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I take it you can not order specific orientation?
Currently no. But they are getting complaints from all quarters on this issue so they must debate how to handle it moving forward. They know it's a critical issue, so I hope we have a resolution before the end of this month.
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I must confess that there is high variability in the quality of their output. I've ordered multiples of the same parts, and found considerable inconsistencies, ranging from barely acceptable to totally worthless.
Some of this stem from the orientation issue Bryan has encountered. However, there are other problems that are related to the cleaning process, which they try to accelerate by heating the objects to melt the wax--which unfortunately is only a few degrees below the melting point of the FUD. I sometimes wish that we could order the products "raw" or uncleaned; I'd clean them myself using heptane, which dissolves the wax thoroughly but does not affect the FUD in any way.
One last issue is that of warping for parts of certain shape, and I have no clue how this might be addressed. It's bad enough that I've had to abandon plans of rendering masters in FUD and making molds of them for resin.
And then there's the problem of delivery times. I've waited as much as eight weeks for some parts to be delivered.
It all goes to show that, while there is unquestionably potential in the process, there's still a considerable amount of maturing necessary.
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Currently no. But they are getting complaints from all quarters on this issue so they must debate how to handle it moving forward. They know it's a critical issue, so I hope we have a resolution before the end of this month.
So soon there will be a $5 orientation fee :D :facepalm:
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I would think that there would be a way to make a single drawing with multiple buildings that would force SW to orient them whatever way you want.
Jason
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For resin casting masters, I wonder if it would just be easier to use Mark4Design instead? It might be more expensive, but we know how good the quality is.
Obviously this wouldn't work for prototype-to-consumer transactions, but for those of use looking for a place to output masters for resin castings (looking at your bus projects Bryan), this would seem the best solution.
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One reason for the variations from run to run could be that Shapeways itself has very limited production capacity - and outsources it to other firms. Whether all the FUD goes to one place or not, I have no idea. However - there is a good chance that various batches of products in some materials could be made in different places.
Clearly this could be done consistently every single time - but in a high growth business, perhaps it could vary.
The design turnaround time has been really discouraging to me - I've seen 8 weeks too - and I am not a very disciplined person - by the time 8 weeks rolls around I'm often on to some new thing.
- Lou
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For resin casting masters, I wonder if it would just be easier to use Mark4Design instead? It might be more expensive, but we know how good the quality is.
Obviously this wouldn't work for prototype-to-consumer transactions, but for those of use looking for a place to output masters for resin castings (looking at your bus projects Bryan), this would seem the best solution.
Good point - and I would add that if Mark is too busy, there are other firms that do Perfactory runs. The pricing is a little bit over Shapeways. I have not seriously looked into them though.
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For resin casting masters, I wonder if it would just be easier to use Mark4Design instead? It might be more expensive, but we know how good the quality is.
Obviously this wouldn't work for prototype-to-consumer transactions, but for those of use looking for a place to output masters for resin castings (looking at your bus projects Bryan), this would seem the best solution.
Good point - and I would add that if Mark is too busy, there are other firms that do Perfactory runs. The pricing is a little bit over Shapeways. I have not seriously looked into them though.
The price is more than a little bit higher. It is an option for masters that are designed to be used for resin castings, but it isn't an option for direct-purchase by consumers. And it's much more difficult to remove the support structure, which is the same material as the item itself. There are issues unique to each process that have to be addressed. This EL-C shell, for example, still has stepping issues on the slopes as well as distortion issues in the cab area and soft-relief issues in other areas.
(http://bbussey.net/rr/EL-C.jpg)
I would think that there would be a way to make a single drawing with multiple buildings that would force SW to orient them whatever way you want.
Yes, if the product was not going directly to consumers on a make-to-order basis. I don't want to have 30 White Towers sitting here collecting dust. The model is an opportunity to take advantage of the Shapeways process and provide a unique item to those who wish to acquire it without having to worry about either meeting the usual production minimums or having to charge a premium price. So hopefully they will arrive at a solution that everyone can live with.
For some potential Sovereign Modeler projects, using the total machine footprint already has been factored in. But getting the single pilot models from Shapeways the way it needs to be rendered (to see if the project is viable or not) is proving to be an arduous task at best. The Shapeways one-million triangle limitation isn't helpful either, especially when trying to fill the entire footprint with multiple iterations.
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Ah, fair enough. Maybe you can do something nefarious with the building like add little arms that extend out that the user would then cut off. :trollface:
Hopefully this will get resolved. I have a couple drawings I want to get priced but I'm waiting to see if this really ends up being a viable option.
Jason
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Bryan - interesting....
The Shapeways model is a really nice one for someone like me doing a couple of things in my spare time - with no infrastructure at all... But even so, I hate the thought of someone ordering something and it comes back with a problem - or takes months to be delivered.
But I am sure it will get resolved one way or another.
- Lou
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What a cluster.
I've only held one FUD part in hand, but I wasn't impressed. The shrinkage factor is large.
Perfactory is impressive when the machine is properly set up for finest resolution. Mark4 was a pioneer, but is busy with other stuff. Use Best-Cast instead. http://www.best-cast.com
Best-Cast will also go from Perfactory to Brass. This is excellent for detail parts. Just be sure to put your own sprues on the drawing... otherwise B-C will put their own on, too large, and in bad spots. But they are learning the needs of our industry. DKS, you should really check them out so you can move forward on some of your already designed projects.
And with the White Tower, seems like it could be cast in resin aside from some window/door detail? It could be done in Perfactory, then cast by Dick Billings, with some photo etched windows... but that's more involved and requires inventory again Bryan.
Too bad about Shapeways, but the FUD limitations are just piling up. Back to the tried-and-true.
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Mike - the real killer for me is the 8 week cycle time - it defeats the purpose of rapid turnaround.
- Lou
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One issue with Perfactory and resin-casting is that the resin can be brittle and will break if not handled properly. The Kaslo SDP40F was a Perfactory to resin project... probably the first in our hobby, but it wasn't without issues...
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Bryan, lets talk about the M4D method of production. What if you built plates for the angle slopes? Build the model in one part for all parts with a flat surface (roof, sides etc). For sides that are diagnal (think GP and DS nose and rear hood ends) design those parts as a flat kit that cab ne glued in later. This should reduce the thatching that occures with the red/orange stuff. Parts like cabs could easilly be done as a seperate part.
You mentioned building the bus model as a flat kit. Try that with the red stuff. I am certain it will work. I am also sure M4D would let you orient the parts as you need.
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Building the buses flat won't help in any medium because of the multiple convex surfaces. Stepping in Perfactory on vertical surfaces isn't an issue. The only reason there was some stepping on the EL-C is because of the steep slopes on the noses. The way around that is to rotate the model about 30 degrees or so on both axises before rendering. With the EL-C, there were other issues, such as having to add support angles in certain spots to keep vertical surfaces from collapsing. Once the resin cures, it's like dealing with a model made literally out of glass, so removing and sanding away the remnants of the supports is no picnic. The C&O well car was going to be a Perfactory kit originally, but it was a b!tch to clean-up. All of the methods have their various issues to work around.
The bus masters in FUD would be around $30. I'm not going to spend $100+ for a Perfactory master from which only 25 or so castings will be rendered. I would love to try the green stuff from FineLine Prototyping. But at a cost of 30x the FUD process, it's not going to happen.
If I was designing a flat kit for myself, it would be simple. The problem is making a kit (if it comes to that) which the general population can build with little effort without breaking the bank, and that takes time and money and trial and error to design.
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Is $100+ an M4D quote? B-C did a z scale flat in perfactory to brass for not much more than that. Seems high for just the perfactory step, but it's been awhile.
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I'm starting to think of moderate sized poured concrete structures here....
FUD may be the ideal medium until these issues are sorted out....
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When I spoke to Mark (M4D) a month or so ago, he wasn't real interested in any new master work. I think the continued weak US dollar is mostly responsible for this.
I did get a little bit of interest upon suggesting some EMD short hoods (especially with Espee light packages) to compliment the existing long hoods.
I had (much) earlier inquired about design and masters for a container project and was looking at about $1k from start to finish, including 3 masters to cast from. I assume the design process was a fair amount of the cost. It would have made at least Gary Hinshaw and DRD happy ;-)
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I just went to the Best-Cast website link that Mike posted, fully assuming they were in the Chicago area. Turns out that not only are they in Jersey, but they are just five miles down the road from me, three towns away. This month's time is tight but I will contact them in October.
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It would have made at least Gary Hinshaw and DRD happy ;)
:lol:
I had (much) earlier inquired about design and masters for a container project and was looking at about $1k from start to finish...
:(
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I just went to the Best-Cast website link that Mike posted, fully assuming they were in the Chicago area. Turns out that not only are they in Jersey, but they are just five miles down the road from me, three towns away. This month's time is tight but I will contact them in October.
Be interesting to see what they can do..
BTW, for someone interested in making some of this stuff, what's a good program to work with?
Art
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I just went to the Best-Cast website link that Mike posted, fully assuming they were in the Chicago area. Turns out that not only are they in Jersey, but they are just five miles down the road from me, three towns away. This month's time is tight but I will contact them in October.
Lol. :lol:
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I had (much) earlier inquired about design and masters for a container project and was looking at about $1k from start to finish, including 3 masters to cast from. I assume the design process was a fair amount of the cost. It would have made at least Gary Hinshaw and DRD happy ;-)
Just "happy" would be understating things quite a bit. :D :o :P
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well I ordered a N scale (1:148th) London Tube train driving coach. I am at about 2-3 weeks in waiting for it. I got an e-mail from them on the 17th saying that the parts were going into production. so we will see how it is once it gets here. I hope it is ok. I got 5 more coaches to get after this one to get the full consist. :scared:
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Be interesting to see what they can do..
BTW, for someone interested in making some of this stuff, what's a good program to work with?
Art
I'm a Solidworks fan. Bryan is too. Robb probably still uses Inventor. DKS might be using Google Sketch-up for the 3D stuff? The Google program is priced right, if you want to try something out. If you want to be "in-the-business" Solidworks is fantastic.
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I emailed Best-Cast last night, and they replied this morning. A support structure no longer has to be designed into the model. I'm going to send a test item for quote at the end of this week. It may not be practical for White Tower, but there are other projects in the hopper that this would be perfect for - if the rendering costs are reasonable.
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Would any of these processes work for something smooth and round ( :trollface: ), say, like a PRR H-class boiler?
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I want to know the answer to Dave's question- class/road specific boilers would be a big deal, especially if the smokebox door could be done too.
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This makes for interesting reading: http://3dhomemade.blogspot.com/
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This makes for interesting reading: http://3dhomemade.blogspot.com/
How does that work?
Looks like a laser shooting up into a tub of resin. The laser heats and cures the resin and the base raises up as each layer is done. Still sounds like $15000ish though.
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I don't think the resolution is as good as FUD, nevermind the prefactory stuff from M4D
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David,
The FUD wax issue has come up in the 1/4800 naval Yahoo forum as well. Any details as to how one removes wax with heptane, where one obtains it, and any health precautions you would use?
Thanks in advance,
Mark H.
Some of this stem from the orientation issue Bryan has encountered. However, there are other problems that are related to the cleaning process, which they try to accelerate by heating the objects to melt the wax--which unfortunately is only a few degrees below the melting point of the FUD. I sometimes wish that we could order the products "raw" or uncleaned; I'd clean them myself using heptane, which dissolves the wax thoroughly but does not affect the FUD in any way.
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David,
The FUD wax issue has come up in the 1/4800 naval Yahoo forum as well. Any details as to how one removes wax with heptane, where one obtains it, and any health precautions you would use?
Thanks in advance,
Mark H.
Heptane is easily obtained: it's generically referred to as rubber cement thinner. Bestine sells it, among others. In terms of toxicity it's a fairly benign solvent, about on par with alcohol. However, it's the most volatile solvent known and is highly flammable, so sensible precautions in that respect are required.
To remove the wax from RP models, I just pour a small amount of heptane in a little glass dish, place the object in it, and gently scrub the object with a brush to remove the wax. Just be sure to take care with finer details.
http://www.dickblick.com/products/bestine-solvent-and-thinner/
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When I spoke to Mark (M4D) a month or so ago, he wasn't real interested in any new master work. I think the continued weak US dollar is mostly responsible for this.
I did get a little bit of interest upon suggesting some EMD short hoods (especially with Espee light packages) to compliment the existing long hoods.
I had (much) earlier inquired about design and masters for a container project and was looking at about $1k from start to finish, including 3 masters to cast from. I assume the design process was a fair amount of the cost. It would have made at least Gary Hinshaw and DRD happy ;-)
James,
Some clarification is in order:
1. I took a look at the quote to which you refer. I believe was was for 53 foot container masters in both N and HO and dated back to 2006. Building the parts (as distinct from designing them) was NZD 600. In those days the exchange rate was around 1.5 so it would have been USD 400, most of which was for the HO version (at around 7 times the volume of the N scale version).
2. I am unable to undertake any design work at present. I am still able to build masters from files supplied by customers.
Mark
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The price is more than a little bit higher. It is an option for masters that are designed to be used for resin castings, but it isn't an option for direct-purchase by consumers. And it's much more difficult to remove the support structure, which is the same material as the item itself. There are issues unique to each process that have to be addressed. This EL-C shell, for example, still has stepping issues on the slopes as well as distortion issues in the cab area and soft-relief issues in other areas.
(http://bbussey.net/rr/EL-C.jpg)
Bryan,
If I am not mistaken that ELC was built around 6.5 years ago; shortly after I took delivery of the machine. Things have moved on since then. For the last 6 years we have been using Materialise Magics support generation software. Supports can be removed (almost!) as easily as tearing the perforations on postage stamps. Most , if not all of the distortion issues have been addressed by a combination of better understanding of exposure time/intensity and ease of adding the appropriate supports. Having said that the advantage of the Shapeways process from the POV of the machine operator is that the supports are continuous and need no user skill to place. Having said that I wish you the best with Best Cast - my engineering clients have largely priced me out of the model RR market - and that's a good thing :)
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I'm a Solidworks fan. Bryan is too. Robb probably still uses Inventor. DKS might be using Google Sketch-up for the 3D stuff? The Google program is priced right, if you want to try something out. If you want to be "in-the-business" Solidworks is fantastic.
Mike, these days I wouldn't go past Rhino for design and prep of files for RP. More powerful than either Inventor or Solidworks but it doesn't hold your hand the way parametric software does. I still use Inventor for engineering work but if STL is the ultimate output Rhino is hard to beat.
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Apologies Mark - didn't mean to misquote you or confuse the subject further.
I just wish I had time to (learn how to) design things myself. I'm looking forward to working on your shells... and would love some short hoods to go with them :-)
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Apologies Mark - didn't mean to misquote you or confuse the subject further.
I just wish I had time to (learn how to) design things myself. I'm looking forward to working on your shells... and would love some short hoods to go with them :-)
No need for apologies, James.
Time...bit of a precious commodity these days!
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Time...bit of a precious commodity these days!
I hope that is a good thing from a work standpoint :)
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Bryan,
If I am not mistaken that ELC was built around 6.5 years ago; shortly after I took delivery of the machine. Things have moved on since then. For the last 6 years we have been using Materialise Magics support generation software. Supports can be removed (almost!) as easily as tearing the perforations on postage stamps. Most , if not all of the distortion issues have been addressed by a combination of better understanding of exposure time/intensity and ease of adding the appropriate supports. Having said that the advantage of the Shapeways process from the POV of the machine operator is that the supports are continuous and need no user skill to place. Having said that I wish you the best with Best Cast - my engineering clients have largely priced me out of the model RR market - and that's a good thing :)
Mark,
It's pricey everywhere. Best Cast happens to be local, on the other side of Paramus, so that's an advantage. But I've been looking at FineLine Prototyping as well. They definitely are options for future items, but the White Tower project will have to get resolved through Shapeways. Eventually they will yield to the pressure of allowing the customer the choice of build orientation because more and more customers are complaining about it (they actually told me this). So it's just a matter of time. The Perfactory option is still the better one if the budget can support it. The Shapeways option is better suited to rendering proofs for verification before having the actual model rendered via Perfactory or a similar method - although the Shapeways brass rendering will be very useful for engine frames on future projects.
Glad to hear work is booming. Best to Tess and the girls.
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For 3D parts, I have a lot of success with Acme Design in Elgin, IL. They use an Objet printer which I have found to be better resolution than Shapeways but not as smooth as perfactory. An inbetween. The Objet also has different build speeds which can give a better resolution at slow speeds. They are certainly quick to respond and there is no odd shrinkage in the parts which happened to me with Shapeways. Prices have been reasonable and if you send them a file in stl format, they can put that into a cost estimator. Yes there is some cleanup to do, even perfactory does. but there is no support structure really, the solid material is built in a cradle or cocoon of soft support material which I do my own clean-off of. Some simple dental tools or picks gets the lions share off and then put it in a bath of slightly caustic solution. Just water and a bit of Drano. Let it sit for a few hours and wash it off and then a quick light scrub with an old toothbrush. If there are build lines or steps, a coat of primer first and some light sanding. You can repeat this but you may be covering up small details.
Bottom line, I like these guys, they do good work for me.
Check out AcmeDesign-Inc.com
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Looks like Shapeways is going to bend to demand and offer the choice of build orientation, tentatively beginning sometime in the first quarter of 2012. In the mean time, I will explore other options for the White Tower, but most likely we will hold the building until Shapeways implements the new option. I did speak with Acme Design, and there probably will be some other ESM projects that will be contracted through them.
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Good news, but at 8 weeks, that's only 2-3 design cycles to test what even makes the most sense!
Will keep plugging away though!!!
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I hope that is a good thing from a work standpoint :)
Mostly!
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Mark,
It's pricey everywhere. Best Cast happens to be local, on the other side of Paramus, so that's an advantage. But I've been looking at FineLine Prototyping as well. They definitely are options for future items, but the White Tower project will have to get resolved through Shapeways. Eventually they will yield to the pressure of allowing the customer the choice of build orientation because more and more customers are complaining about it (they actually told me this). So it's just a matter of time. The Perfactory option is still the better one if the budget can support it. The Shapeways option is better suited to rendering proofs for verification before having the actual model rendered via Perfactory or a similar method - although the Shapeways brass rendering will be very useful for engine frames on future projects.
Glad to hear work is booming. Best to Tess and the girls.
Thanks Bryan. We must catch up again one day.