TheRailwire
General Discussion => N and Z Scales => Topic started by: DRGW Jake on June 19, 2011, 08:59:34 AM
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Hey all, I'm looking into purchasing some N scale equipment to start a small layout to give me something to do in my spare time, as I've exhausted everything else not even three weeks into the summer. ::) The selection of diesel locomotives from my era (mid/late 1970's to late 1980's/early 1990s) seems decent, how ever I notice a glaring defect in every locomotive I see: fist thick handrails. I guess they are one of my pet peeves, but I can not stand them. They make me want to claw my eyes out with a melon baller. :-\ I'm guessing the simple solution to this would be to simply clip them off and replace them with music wire of an appropriate (or at least better) size; if one can even get music wire that small. Are there any other things I could/should consider doing? Or would music wire be the way to go? I also foresee issues of the rails becoming horribly bent and misshapen should I look at them the wrong way, due to their small diameter. How can this be avoided?
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Wire - Tichy .008" or .010" Phosphorbronze
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/293-1100
Stanchions - Gold Medal Models
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/304-16032
Result -
(http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/1767/CEFXSD45R_36_Finished_Rear_Quarter.jpg)
Unpainted -
(http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/1767/CEFXSD45R_16_Quarter_Rear.jpg)
They have held up very good. Notice however once you put paint on them, they don't look that much thinner than the nose and rear railings which I left stock. This is a Bachmann model, not a Kato though. Kato has a tendency to use very chunky handrails compared to others. The Atlas loco's are beter with IM having the thinnest factory handrails, but also the most fragile.
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Hello Jake,
I fully agree with you, in that scale handrails can be a substantial improvement in the appearance of N scale diesels. To my eye they add a sense of scale and mass that is hard to achieve any other way.
My preference is to use 0.008" phosphor bronze wire from CMA, along with the photo-etched brass stanchions from Gold Medal Models. The phosphor bronze is stiffer than brass wire and is surprisingly durable for its size. When soldered to the brass stanchions the overall result is reasonably strong, and while this is not for the heavy-handed, if things get bent out of alignment I find that it's usually not to hard to carefully bend them back.
Here are a few example pics of models I have done, along with some OOTB pix for comparison (thanks to Gary H. for the ATSF OOTB pic). Here also are links to some threads with further details, by all means please let me know if I can answer any further questions for you.
http://therailwire.net/forum/index.php/topic,21548.msg202792.html#msg202792
http://therailwire.net/forum/index.php/topic,20603.0.html
http://therailwire.net/forum/index.php/topic,11602.msg92521.html#msg92521
Regards,
Ed
(http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o153/ednadolski/Picture028-smallz.jpg)
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_t_cm3oU0yFU/TDKJcZnHTSI/AAAAAAAACqc/2ZWvWmflnTA/s800/DSCN9704.jpg)
(http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o153/ednadolski/100B1042_small.jpg)
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Tony,
thanks for the Walthers reference. I should order some of this just to test what could be done :)
I might start with some old switchers that need partial rebuilding.
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Wow, those models look infinitely better! That's some awesome modeling guys, I would've guessed they were HO and not N had I not known. Thanks for the help! ;D I'd also like to ask, what was the method of attaching the rails to the locomotives? It looks like you guys drilled holes into the shell for the wire, but how did you secure the rails and keep them from falling off?
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I've had good luck with .005 and even .003 piano wire on my ships. While piano wire is harder to bend, I find it is stiffer than phosphor bronze, i.e, more fumble-fingers resistant--and also cheaper. But it does not solder. I bought lots of it many years ago, so don't have a current source. I anchor ends by drilling holes, but even #80 holes are too large. I believe the GMM stanchions work well with #80 bits, or slightly larger. Most of my modeling gear is still in boxes, as are my ships--and I dread opening the latter.
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Wow, those models look infinitely better! That's some awesome modeling guys, I would've guessed they were HO and not N had I not known. Thanks for the help! ;D I'd also like to ask, what was the method of attaching the rails to the locomotives? It looks like you guys drilled holes into the shell for the wire, but how did you secure the rails and keep them from falling off?
It really depends on the loco. The SD45 had holes in the body for each stanchion already. It was just a matter of folding the end over and inserting it in the hole. I can see the Kato and Atlas loco's being more work as the handrails are molded to the sill. I haven't done one yet but I would first drill through each handrail on the sill so that spacing would match. Then carve off the stanchions and finish as on the SD45.
As far as the handrail to the stachion, I used CA. I didn't have a nice low wattage soldering iron at the time. Now that I have a 12w micro pencil, I would probably try soldering but CA has held up fine, including a drop to the floor once.
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But it does not solder.
You should be able to solder it using the right flux (liquid acid, such as Stay Clean). I solder music wire all the time.
I anchor ends by drilling holes, but even #80 holes are too large.
You need sub-80 drills. Here's a good source: http://drillcity.stores.yahoo.net/index.html
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The improvement in appearance in those models is tremendous. This thread is full of good information. Micro (sub #80) drills- a revelation!
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CA for the frame / stanchion joint. Solder for the handrail / stanchion joint. This is 0.010" brass wire. GMM stanchions. I see no reason why the handrail / stanchion joint cannot be done with CA. Once the stanchions are joined to the handrails the entire structure is pretty durable. Still must be handled with care of course as it will not spring back into shape like plastic. I've not tried phosophorbronze wire but have some and will do so for the next project, whenever that happens.
Steve
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o235/SAHRR/SD9_B4Paint.jpg)
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o235/SAHRR/SD9Closeup005ms.jpg)
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That's some fantastic modeling there, Steve! ;D
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Steve,
Great little jig there.
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Some nice work displayed here ....... I use phosphoric acid to assist me in my soldering challenges.
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^Does the use of phosphoric acid as a flux necessitate the washing of the handrail assembly before installation? I know FastTracks recommend washing turnouts made using their acid-based flux before installation due to corrosion issues.
--Jake
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I'm extremely impressed with the results that skipgear, Ed N, and SAH are getting with their handrails, but it's hard (at least for me!) to build a fleet using this approach. So I started looking into etching handrails. Some explorations are in this thead:
http://therailwire.net/forum/index.php/topic,23436.0.html (http://therailwire.net/forum/index.php/topic,23436.0.html)
Alas the project has languished due to other commitments, but I hope to return to it before too long.
-Gary
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what was the method of attaching the rails to the locomotives? It looks like you guys drilled holes into the shell for the wire, but how did you secure the rails and keep them from falling off?
The GMM stanchions have a little tab at the bottom that you bend 90 degrees, then glue with CA into a hole drilled into the sidesill. Kato and some other brand locos make the sidesill from two halves, which I prefer to glue together before snipping off the plastic factory stanchions with a flush cutting pliers and drilling the hole. BTW when installing stanchions this way it helps keep them precisely vertical by sighting them against the doors and other vertical lines molded into the body of the loco. The other thing I do is, I use the longer stanchions from the GMM set, and then after the wire handrails are soldered I clip off the excess length.
BTW Skipgear & Steve, great pics! 8) 8) 8)
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Hmm, the idea of etching handrails is intriguing, Gary. I happen to own a copy of AutoCAD myself (Yay for free student licenses!) and I may have to look into that.
And many thanks to everyone who has offered input, you guys have been awesome!
--Jake
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You should give the item a rinse off before painting after the use of the phosphoric acid as the heat from the soldering can cause some oxides to form, looks like a crusty coating. Also on some ferrous metals the coating left behind can be powdery (iron phosphate) which if excessive will cause poor paint bonding. Some etch primers use phos acid as part of the bonding process. So do you have to wash it off ...... yes ......
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Gary - this looks like a fascinating project and one in which I'm very interested. I have a bunch of Atlas SD60s that I'd like to improve the handrails on, but GMM doesn't do the longer stanchions for the blower duct area. Doing one piece etches would be perfect... I hope your idea of a plug-and-play CAD component library works out, I'm not sure I can do them myself from a blank screen.
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The Transfer Cabooses had perplexed me for a while for this very reason. The prominent feature of the caboose was all of the railings. These not only had to be scale in appearance, but also tough to stand up to handling. The solution was an etched .005" stainless steel stanchion that folded together 180 degrees to form a .010" laminate that is x10 stronger than a single sheet of metal. I used bend tabs to create the footings that allowed attachment and .008" PB wire for the actual railing.
(http://www.traincat2.com/images/photos/railings.jpg)
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Very nice! What gave you the idea to etch the stanchions at half-thickness and fold them? Also, how did you fold them? It seems like it would be difficult to fold such a small piece of metal and have its edges line up correctly.
--Jake
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Wow, that caboose is impressive. I would love to have a MoPac version that looks that good.
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Wow, that caboose is impressive. I would love to have a MoPac version that looks that good.
I'll second that!
I'm not trying to highjack this thread but, Speaking of a MoPac caboose, does anybody know what ever happened to the one that Fox Valley announced a few years back?
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You should be able to solder it using the right flux (liquid acid, such as Stay Clean). I solder music wire all the time.
Didn't realize it worked for piano wire. My soldering at small sizes is a disaster.
You need sub-80 drills. Here's a good source: http://drillcity.stores.yahoo.net/index.html
Thanks for the source! I'll try some. My drilling at those small sizes . . .
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My soldering at small sizes is a disaster.
The right flux can make a world of difference. For years I thought I was just lousy at soldering. Turns out I was just using the wrong materials. Ever since I started using acid flux, I've been able to solder things I'd thought impossible.
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I'm extremely impressed with the results that skipgear, Ed N, and SAH are getting with their handrails, but it's hard (at least for me!) to build a fleet using this approach. So I started looking into etching handrails. Some explorations are in this thead:
-Gary
I totally agree with Gary. It would be hard for anybody to build a fleet using the stanchion & wire handrail approach unless they have A LOT of time on their hands. And if you need a fleet, you probably are planning to have ops sessions, which leads one to ask why the superdetailed locos are necessary. It would be nice, but something usually has to give.
Philip - The jig allowed me to access all sides of the loco during the detailing process with minimum handling. It looks cobbled together but it worked real well.
I also remember slipping a piece of basswood between the hood and handrail/stanchions to provide a solid backing surface for soldering. Not sure if I have pictures.
Steve
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I think some handrail-and-stanchion sets (in particular the ones for the "long hoods") might be do-able using the Silhouette cutter and acetate sheet. I've been able to cut fence sections out of 0.004" acetate, with pickets 0.010" across. The material's pretty resistant to damage--unless you crease it, it will flex and then resume its original shape.
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I think some handrail-and-stanchion sets (in particular the ones for the "long hoods") might be do-able using the Silhouette cutter and acetate sheet. I've been able to cut fence sections out of 0.004" acetate, with pickets 0.010" across. The material's pretty resistant to damage--unless you crease it, it will flex and then resume its original shape.
Whoa! I can't wait to try this! Thanks!