TheRailwire
General Discussion => N and Z Scales => Topic started by: lock4244 on March 21, 2011, 03:06:48 PM
-
The Erie Lackawanna is what I'd likely model (between Hornell and Binghamton) circa 1973-75 had I not been born in Canada and exposed to CN and CP all my life. I do sometimes buy equipment for the EL and am wondering about a few newer items coming in N that may be correct for the EL in that era. Specifically the BLMA F89, the Trainworx F85, the Trainworx UPS trailers, and the Athearn bay window caboose:
1) I know the brown F89's are a go, but what of the F89 and F85 in the yellow Trailer Train 'TT' scheme (first F85 release is in this one)? Would that have been in use during the 1973-75 time frame?
2) And with several versions of the UPS 40' van coming, which is correct for that era?
3) What of the upcoming Athearn bay window caboose for EL? I'm guessing not a match, but is it even in the ballpark?
-
The Erie Lackawanna is what I'd likely model (between Hornell and Binghamton) circa 1973-75 had I not been born in Canada and exposed to CN and CP all my life. I do sometimes buy equipment for the EL and am wondering about a few newer items coming in N that may be correct for the EL in that era. Specifically the BLMA F89, the Trainworx F85, the Trainworx UPS trailers, and the Athearn bay window caboose:
1) I know the brown F89's are a go, but what of the F89 and F85 in the yellow Trailer Train 'TT' scheme (first F85 release is in this one)? Would that have been in use during the 1973-75 time frame?
2) And with several versions of the UPS 40' van coming, which is correct for that era?
3) What of the upcoming Athearn bay window caboose for EL? I'm guessing not a match, but is it even in the ballpark?
Yellow TT also works for Erie Lackawanna, probably more so since the commonly-known EL deco scheme wasn't immediately applied to all motive power when the railroad was formed in 1960. Any pre-TTX scheme on the long flats would be prototypically accurate.
Either Railmodel Journal or Model Railroading had an extensive series on the UPS trailers. I don't remember when and I can't put my hands on the information, but the articles are on TrainLife and one of the magazine online searches and pinpoint the issues.
-
I found this using the MR magazine search tool:
Modeling modern intermodal part 1
UPS 45' Intermodal and Highway Trailers, pt. 1
from Model Railroading January 1998
But nothing on the 40'ers.
I did ask TWX about these in the context of my era (1974) and got this response from Pat Sanders:
These trailers first appeared in the mid 1960s. The trailers without any markings are repaints from the 90s.
-
I found them: Model Railroading, Feb-May 1996, Aug 1996.
-
I found them: Model Railroading, Feb-May 1996, Aug 1996.
Ah thanks - the model train index kept "timing out" 8)
Feb 95 is 28' container and 28' chassis
-
Lock4244,
from several members of the ELHS; The UPS trailer with the 2 red stripes are accurate for E-L late 60s to CR.
Athearn Bay window caboose is not correct for EL, however, the paint and lettering is VERY accurate. The art work was done by Paul T. from Primemover Decals. The caboose body is close enough unless you count the rivets !
I just went through a discussion on E-L correct cabooses for N-Scale.
The Walthers Bay window is a good model of the E-L cars # C371 to C380 delivered W/O roof walks in 1970.
The side windows need to be squared off and one window needs to be filled in.
Any of the other Bay Window cars offered in N have the same issue. Very close, only 2 windows per side.
PMD decals makes decal sets that are spot on for E-L cabooses in all the paint schemes.
The ONLY N-Scale caboose that is right on, is KV models resin kit for the DL&W Keyser Valley shops built cars.
Many of these lasted to the end of E-L in several paint schemes.
KV's cars have been sold out for a few years now, but some of are are going to try to get Scott to run some more.
They are not easy kits, but they can be made to look pretty good.
Greg O.
-
I posted a summary of the MRing UPS trailer series and the timelines for the schemes in the Trainworx announcement thread....
-
Thanks guys.
-
As far as the caboose goes, it's not a match, but it's decently close. When Athearn did them in the CR scheme, they gave them the same number series as the CRHS's caboose (an ex-EL N7E bay window car).
Since the EL's a secondary interest, I'd say go for it. That and some (fixed up) IM SD45-2s would scream late-EL.
-
SD45's, SDP45's, SD45-2's, U33C's, U36C's mingled with C424's, C425's, U25B's, GP35's... and I could finally find a reason to have a pair of PA's. Probably an excuse to have a few D&H units, too (already have a U30C). AT&SF, BN and MILW power was not uncommon on the EL as well, though not overly common east of Marion... excuse for an F45 or FP45. Hmmm...
-
Make sure to include a couple Santa Fe units (run through power in 1975) and a couple of modern Milwaukee Road units "Working off" horsepower hours.
:P
J
-
The E-L passed east-west through my home town, while the PC went north-south.
While even as a young rail-fan one got the feeling of "decrepit" with the PC, the E-L was always held in higher (quality) regard... Even after the bankruptcy filing following Hurricane Agnes in '72.
The E-L trains seemed to run faster and their mainline through this area was considered to be top-shelf. I have a video someone shot while riding an E-L train through the southerntier of New York State and the speedometer was hitting 70mph.
Boy, seeing a train come through being led by SD45's in that wonderful color scheme... Just took your breath away as a railfan.
-
Michael, I can only dream of the EL... would have loved to have seen her for myself. Note my avatar is of a former CP M630 working EB on the former Erie mainline in Olean. It was a real pleasure shooting along that storied mainline!
-
Hey,
In the peroid your talking about, EL used SD-45-2 as their primery power on those trains. They had 5,000 gal. fuel tanks. They didn't need fuel until they got to Chicago or Croxton Yard in N.J. U-33's were also used. You could see any other engine thrown into the consist. U-25's, GP-35's were common sights also. It was also common to see run thru engines from other RR's. Like BN, SF, Great Northern before that. EL did alot with SF. They had trains back then that went back & forth between the coasts.
They had both TTX schemes.
The trailers that are coming, I've got 8 on order. They work. They'll go good with the old Con-Cor's & all the lease trailers.
The Bay window comng will complete the train.
As it is now, I run NY-100 & 2nd NY-100. I guess I'l do CX-99 now. 3 big IM trains.
(http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/511/DSC00287.JPG)
(http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/511/DSC00286.JPG)
-
Michael, I can only dream of the EL... would have loved to have seen her for myself. Note my avatar is of a former CP C630M working EB on the former Erie mainline in Olean. It was a real pleasure shooting along that storied mainline!
Yeah, I kinda kick myself a little for not paying as much attention to the E-L as I should have prior to the formation of CR.
The Salamanca yard with its turntable and concrete coaling tower was very interesting. And it was still an active yard up until they quit running the coal trains to Dunkirk... about the time of Agnes.
-
Trailer Train made the jump from brown to yellow in 1970,
http://www.bluford-shops.com/bluford_1025_026.htm
so yes both brown and yellow are fair game.
EL ran E8's in freight service around that period too.
Craig
-
The E-L passed east-west through my home town, while the PC went north-south.
While even as a young rail-fan one got the feeling of "decrepit" with the PC, the E-L was always held in higher (quality) regard... Even after the bankruptcy filing following Hurricane Agnes in '72.
The E-L trains seemed to run faster and their mainline through this area was considered to be top-shelf. I have a video someone shot while riding an E-L train through the southerntier of New York State and the speedometer was hitting 70mph.
Boy, seeing a train come through being led by SD45's in that wonderful color scheme... Just took your breath away as a railfan.
You are right on the difference between EL and PC. At the start of Conrail, CR took the UPS trains off the EL and ran them on the shorter West Shore/ old NYC route. They couldn't keep the trains on the EL's schedule. UPS told CR to put the trains back where they were, or UPS would put the trailers on the highway. EL really meant it when they said "Friendly Service Route".
Frank
-
I posted a summary of the MRing UPS trailer series and the timelines for the schemes in the Trainworx announcement thread....
I read that summary again, and while very good, it still doesn't indicate to me when specific stripes would have been in service, only that the yellow and red stripes would have been seen "through the nineties." Were they delivered that way?
-
You are right on the difference between EL and PC. At the start of Conrail, CR took the UPS trains off the EL and ran them on the shorter West Shore/ old NYC route. They couldn't keep the trains on the EL's schedule. UPS told CR to put the trains back where they were, or UPS would put the trailers on the highway. EL really meant it when they said "Friendly Service Route".
Frank
From the reading I've done it sounds like the EL would have made for a great merger partner, but there seemed to be some issues with the folks that worked for the railroad.
-
EL & D&H were going to merge, but the unions shot it down.
-
I read that summary again, and while very good, it still doesn't indicate to me when specific stripes would have been in service, only that the yellow and red stripes would have been seen "through the nineties." Were they delivered that way?
Sorry Dave, on the road for 6 weeks and away from the books....hopefully someone else can help out. The article was focused on 90s modelling though....
-
EL & D&H were going to merge, but the unions shot it down.
The D&H was actually part of the original EL talks. They backed out because at the time, the D&H was well off, and DL&W and Erie were in financial trouble. The D&H board didn't think it was in their investor's best interest. That had changed by the time of the Penn Central merger.
Chessie System was supposed to take over the EL with the advent of Conrail. They backed out, claiming union intransigence. That may or may not be the real reason. Maybe they just got cold feet.
Frank
-
The EL and B&O mainlines crossed at Sterling, OH., where a connection could have been made and the EL downgraded or abandoned west of there (or west or Marion as the EL provided a straighter shot to Cincinnati from the Northeast). That or the B&O shuttered west of there. Either way, it looks good on the map and Chessie would have had a big leg up on the hot intermodal traffic in the Chicago - NY lane (and a lock on NE bound double stacks in the 80's), direct connections to New England (and the D&H and B&M were ripe for the plucking in the 70's), and a faster route out of Buffalo to the west. The rot coming out of the east at the time would have been enough to scare any sane person from the EL, but one wonders...
-
From discussions with the people who were actually involved, the unions were responsible for lack of a Chessie-EL merger, but for good reason. They really were going to get the shaft.
-
From discussions with the people who were actually involved, the unions were responsible for lack of a Chessie-EL merger, but for good reason. They really were going to get the shaft.
Same with the Reading,
Phil
-
For anyone whose really interested in the nitty gritty regarding the Erie Lackawanna, I'd highly suggest "Erie Lackawanna: Death of an American Railroad" by H. Roger Grant? You'll come to find out that the EL's Troubles start "Pre Merger", and with some unforeseen natural events combined with poor management choices, and you end up with a failed railroad seeking last minute inclusion into Conrail.
as an aside, did you know, that the EL had plans to order both GP38-2's and U23B's? (U boats ended up on the L&N I believe)
Would've made an interesting competitor to Conrail if it survived.
J.....
-
I knew about the GP-38's & U boats. They were ordered but never delivered. I've been looking for that book. I heard it was great. Espiecally if your an EL fan.
-
Would've made an interesting competitor to Conrail if it survived.
Dereco as originally planned would have been a real competitior... RDG, CNJ, EL, D&H and B&M
-
Dereco as originally planned would have been a real competitior... RDG, CNJ, EL, D&H and B&M
Don't forget N&W.
-
For anyone whose really interested in the nitty gritty regarding the Erie Lackawanna, I'd highly suggest "Erie Lackawanna: Death of an American Railroad" by H. Roger Grant? You'll come to find out that the EL's Troubles start "Pre Merger", and with some unforeseen natural events combined with poor management choices, and you end up with a failed railroad seeking last minute inclusion into Conrail.
as an aside, did you know, that the EL had plans to order both GP38-2's and U23B's? (U boats ended up on the L&N I believe)
Would've made an interesting competitor to Conrail if it survived.
J.....
Stuff I dug up on the internet - 20 x GP38-2 and 19 x U23B's. I believe the GP38-2's were ordered (PO was supposedly issued) but they were never built... for anyone. The U23B's were ordered with AAR B trucks, but the order was delivered with FB-2's when to the order when to the L&N.
-
Don't forget N&W.
Dereco was never to be a true part of N&W, just a holding company controlled by it and other roads. The aforementioned Dereco was a direct result of N&Ws takeover of C&O, with the B&O and the WM... but after the PC bankruptcy, the ICC put a hold on all merger applications, even ones it gave preliminary approval to.
-
The ELHS magazine The Diamond - V25 No1 2011 has a very good article by Paul Brezicki covering operations on the West End of the EL, circa 1968 - 1973. A wonderful quote from the article:
"Penn Central was like an unruly guest at a kid's birthday party, creating chaos by bullying other guests, stealing toys, and finally having to be carried out after getting sick on too much birthday cake."
Modeling the EL Mahoning Division was my original choice and planning progressed for many years with that as the goal. I finally figured out there was no way i could do it justice in the space I'd likely have at my disposal. Still a favorite though.
Steve