TheRailwire

General Discussion => N and Z Scales => Topic started by: 3rdrail on February 12, 2008, 10:27:32 AM

Title: Hari-kiri or Seppuku?
Post by: 3rdrail on February 12, 2008, 10:27:32 AM
It would appear one of the Oriental manufacturers desires to commit suicide, according to George Canham of Wig-Wag. I have no reason to doubt his information.

Quote
We have been advised that M.A.P. (Minimum Advertised Pricing) is coming to N-Scale.  One of the Oriental companies is upset by what they percieve to be a degradation in the value of their product by it being discounted by dealers.  They will begin forcing dealers to post false advertised price structures.  They will force distributors to enforce this upon the dealers by withholding product from the dealer if they advertise a lower price than that allowed.  Dealers can sell at any price they want but can't publicly advertise a price below the established M.A.P.  We also understand that they have been trying for several years to find some way to provide some sort of support to local shops that don't want to work and compete in the marketplace.



Is this the same crap PCM/BLI has tried?? If this is Kato, they'll lose a helluva lot of sales doing this.
Title: Re: Hari-kiri or Seppuku?
Post by: Ed Kapuscinski on February 12, 2008, 10:56:50 AM
Oh yeah, I'd bet a few dollars this is Kato up to this crap. They've ALWAYS been up in people's business with regards to pricing.

In reality, all it's going to do is cause a bunch of headaches for dealers, but I bet real prices aren't going to change at all, and people are just gonna think that Kato are a bunch of assholes.

Of all the manufacturers, Kato has ALWAYS seemed the most "corporate". And that's not a compliment.
Title: Re: Hari-kiri or Seppuku?
Post by: sirenwerks on February 12, 2008, 01:36:14 PM
Like the GP38-2, I wish Atlas would just go ahead and produce the F3 and F7, the SD45 and the SD40 and dash 2 version, and put Kato to rest. (Yes, I know I'm missing a few models in Kato's line, but those are the ones important to me. And yes, I know IM makes a line of Fs, but IMHO their high ride look doesn't suit my want for a prototype F).

What is the diff between hari-kiri and seppuku anyway? Isn't the latter the former, just ordered by your master? And Kato certainly doesn't think the consumer is their master. Not even their equal it seems.
Title: Re: Hari-kiri or Seppuku?
Post by: lock4244 on February 12, 2008, 02:33:17 PM
Weak...
Title: Re: Hari-kiri or Seppuku?
Post by: Kisatchie on February 12, 2008, 04:41:03 PM
What is the diff between hari-kiri and seppuku anyway? Isn't the latter the former, just ordered by your master?...


Same thing:

http://www.bartleby.com/61/26/S0272600.html
Title: Re: Hari-kiri or Seppuku?
Post by: TiVoPrince on February 12, 2008, 05:45:53 PM
So
the same pricing games like add to your cart to see the 'too low to advertise price' comes to model railroading.  Already a fact of life for Amazon, Circuit City and NewEgg...
Title: Re: Hari-kiri or Seppuku?
Post by: SquirrelHollow on February 12, 2008, 10:49:49 PM
So
the same pricing games like add to your cart to see the 'too low to advertise price' comes to model railroading.  Already a fact of life for Amazon, Circuit City and NewEgg...

Thank google for that.  Advertisements on google, even when created by a user-defined search; added yet another dimension to this idiotic business practice.

If it is Kato, it makes even less sense than other companies.  Kato doesn't even sell direct!  Too many dealer complaints?  Too many cry babies?

I'd like to see how dealers feel about this.
Title: Re: Hari-kiri or Seppuku?
Post by: wcfn100 on February 12, 2008, 11:36:15 PM
If nothing else, maybe there will be a couple hobby shops that get some extra sales and won't have to close their doors this year.


Looks like some E-Bay sellers will have to start using the "Best Offer" instead of "Buy it Now" as well.


Jason
Title: Re: Hari-kiri or Seppuku?
Post by: GonzoCRFan on February 13, 2008, 12:09:35 AM

Looks like some E-Bay sellers will have to start using the "Best Offer" instead of "Buy it Now" as well.


I would think that Kato would have a hard time tracking down and enforcing this policy on dedicated Ebay sellers, as opposed to actual storefronts.

I guess they don't have the concepts of supply & demand and allowing the market to set the actual fair price over in Japan. It just seems to me as time goes on, Kato is making dumber and dumber business decisions in the American market. First they start with the whole "when we announce something, the container is already on the ship" crap, and now they're trying to make life more problematic for the dealers who are PROVIDING their profits by SELLING their products? Seriously, is Kato trying to throw the game?
Title: google sketchup
Post by: RS-27 on February 13, 2008, 04:27:08 AM
If you haven't been there:
www.sketchup.com

A Google program that will shake your modeling world.

Bob in IDaho
Title: Re: google sketchup
Post by: nscalesteve on February 13, 2008, 04:39:11 AM
get over it Schnitzki, we all know you hate Kato, so what... !

dealer can still sell to absolute lowest margins if they like but guys like the complaining one in 3rd rails post have to stop with their obvious shilling, that's all...
Title: Re: Hari-kiri or Seppuku?
Post by: nscalesteve on February 13, 2008, 04:46:15 AM
If this is Kato, they'll lose a helluva lot of sales doing this.

and why ? if you like to buy very high quality N scale model trains you have to buy Kato. if you are into modern diesel stuff you have to buy Kato (except the C40-8(W) from Atlas). if you are into good quality steam you have to buy Kato. why would you stop buying Kato just because they try to get rid off all the shilling and price dumping ?
Title: Re: Hari-kiri or Seppuku?
Post by: wm3798 on February 13, 2008, 08:15:37 AM
Maybe dealers wouldn't have to deep discount if Kato would provide more than two road names...  Spreading the love around would make for more demand, ipso facto supporting higher price points.

I think they've saturated the western road market, causing a surplus of inventory, hence depressing prices.

And Steve, you're right on some of your points, but I have yet to experience where Atlas is soooo inferior to Kato.  My fleet is made up of 80% Atlas, with the other 20% divided equally among Life Like, Intermountain and Kato.  I have a couple of maintenance issues on the Lifelikes (grinding flanges down, etc) and I've had one Atlas mechanism fail in 10 years.  This was due more to heavy use than a mechanical or design problem.

In terms of shell detail and a high degree of prototype fidelity, you can't beat Atlas.  Nor in terms of variety.

If they try to force a higher price, they're going to see a lower net return.  The same thing happens when the idiots in government raise taxes thinking they'll get more revenue.

Lee

Title: Re: Hari-kiri or Seppuku?
Post by: lock4244 on February 13, 2008, 08:52:25 AM
And Steve, you're right on some of your points, but I have yet to experience where Atlas is soooo inferior to Kato.

WM never owned an SD50 or SD60, so you've likely never had the pleasure. They are not terrible, but not great either. Kato SD's run circles around them. These are the reason I fear an Atlas SD40-2... though one does get sick of seemingly endless BNSF releases from Kato.
Title: Re: Hari-kiri or Seppuku?
Post by: 3rdrail on February 13, 2008, 10:15:21 AM
For the record, it's no skin off my nose. The last time I bought a Kato locomotive was when the Mikados first came out and I got one for less than $100. from BLW.

Most people are somewhat subject to price stimuli, and a reduced price will clear inventory. Unsaleable inventory greatly increases opportunity cost and this will cause friction with the dealers, not all of which have "shopping carts".

But, if Kato has started a trend... boo, hiss!
Title: Re: Hari-kiri or Seppuku?
Post by: wm3798 on February 13, 2008, 11:11:45 AM
And Steve, you're right on some of your points, but I have yet to experience where Atlas is soooo inferior to Kato.

WM never owned an SD50 or SD60, so you've likely never had the pleasure. They are not terrible, but not great either. Kato SD's run circles around them. These are the reason I fear an Atlas SD40-2... though one does get sick of seemingly endless BNSF releases from Kato.

I had an Atlas SD-60 back when I was still dabbling in Conrail, and was pretty happy with it.  I currently have a pair of newer Kato SD-40's, and 3 older SD's, (a 40 and 2 45's for Reading) and they are definitely top drawer.  But any differences in performance are negligible in my view.  One key difference is the Atlas model had scale width hoods, not so with the Big K.  This is particularly noticeable on the 45's, as the flared radiators don't seem to flare quite right...

Lee
Title: Re: Hari-kiri or Seppuku?
Post by: Lucas in Alaska on February 13, 2008, 01:38:27 PM
I find this very interesting and sad. I was over on the atlas forum it has been reported as Kato's doing.

http://forum.atlasrr.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=44510 (http://forum.atlasrr.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=44510)

Lucas in Alaksa
Title: Re: Hari-kiri or Seppuku?
Post by: sundowner on February 13, 2008, 02:29:22 PM
I dont see what the big deal is, this only affect the avertise prices for an item, not the actual sales price since most good dealers will do there discounts at the shopping cart.
Title: Re: Hari-kiri or Seppuku?
Post by: Wlal13again on February 13, 2008, 05:55:58 PM
 Dont do Dash 9`s AC`s or western roads, no biggie from me.. If they come out with another run of SD45`s, wake me up... :P
Title: Re: Hari-kiri or Seppuku?
Post by: Iain on February 13, 2008, 11:03:26 PM
Dont do Dash 9`s AC`s or western roads, no biggie from me.. If they come out with another run of SD45`s, wake me up... :P
I want some haggis.
Title: Re: Hari-kiri or Seppuku?
Post by: Ed Kapuscinski on February 14, 2008, 12:14:52 AM
Dont do Dash 9`s AC`s or western roads, no biggie from me.. If they come out with another run of SD45`s, wake me up... :P
I want some haggis.

What?
Title: Re: Hari-kiri or Seppuku?
Post by: GonzoCRFan on February 14, 2008, 12:23:04 AM

I want some haggis.

Nobody cares.
Title: Re: Hari-kiri or Seppuku?
Post by: cv_acr on February 14, 2008, 01:16:59 PM

I want some haggis.

Nobody cares.

Right. What does stuffed sheep intestine have to do with model locomotives?

 :-X
Title: Re: Hari-kiri or Seppuku?
Post by: Iain on February 14, 2008, 09:05:55 PM

I want some haggis.

Nobody cares.

Right. What does stuffed sheep intestine have to do with model locomotives?

 :-X
It's a good distraction from Kato.  Actually, I misread a word in the post I quoted as Haggis.