Pullman 12-1: MTL vs Rivarossi

[Mark5]

Ok, so Saturday morning was looking at my 40 year old Atlas/Rivarossi 12-1 Pullman and also at the price for a new MTL one at MBK and thinking about what I'd need to do to the 40 year old version:

• Convert roof to A/C
• Add end steps
• probably more

To cut to the chase after comparing pix of the MTL 12-1 to N&W's 12-1s (the model matches up very very well) - I went to MBK and picked one up. There are some differences between the 40 year old model and the MTL (some windows are different for example) - I will post some comparison pix in the next day or so). I think the Rivarossi 12-1 was based on a less common version IIRC.

For now, some info on the RR 12-1 is here:

http://www.trainweb.org/fredatsf/protopass1.htm

The MTL is VERY NICE, especially for the money. One thing I find very odd about the model though - the trucks (which have offset bolster holes) are mounted toward the inside of the car. If it was me, I would have placed the bolster holes toward the outside of the cars, so as to minimize end overhang on curves (and enhance coupling dynamics). I guess MTL had a compelling reason to do this???? (Joe?).

As I said, pix will come in the next day or so.

Mark

[Bob Bufkin]

Jerry LaBody did a writup on the difference on the 12-1's.  Know he posts here, so maybe he can do a rehash for us. 

[Sokramiketes]

The RR 12-1 is a less common plan number than other versions of the 12-1, but when comparing to the MTL model, remember that they also represent different eras in Pullman construction.  The RR car is older and correctly shorter in length.  The MTL model has the more modern pedimented ends. 

The MTL cars are nice.  I wish there were some stops to keep the trucks from spinning around completely.  And I wish the coupler boxes didn't spin on their mounting posts.  Oh, and maybe that the coupled spacing wasn't so far apart...  But hey, at least the couplers are body mounted to start.   

[sizemore]

The RR 12-1 is a less common plan number than other versions of the 12-1, but when comparing to the MTL model, remember that they also represent different eras in Pullman construction.  The RR car is older and correctly shorter in length.  The MTL model has the more modern pedimented ends. 

The MTL cars are nice.  I wish there were some stops to keep the trucks from spinning around completely.  And I wish the coupler boxes didn't spin on their mounting posts.  Oh, and maybe that the coupled spacing wasn't so far apart...  But hey, at least the couplers are body mounted to start.   

And I wish the "new" wheelsets didn't fall out so easily. Replaced the wheelsets with FVM's and it immediately improved truck tracking through my super-el curves.

The S.

[bbussey]

The MTL cars are nice.  I wish there were some stops to keep the trucks from spinning around completely.  And I wish the coupler boxes didn't spin on their mounting posts.  Oh, and maybe that the coupled spacing wasn't so far apart...  But hey, at least the couplers are body mounted to start.   

I mentioned the first two things to MTL in Sugar Land and how to fix them with very minor tooling mods, and I think it's something they are going to address.  As far as the coupling distance, I was going to see how the distance was after replacing the diaphragms with ALM functioning diaphragms before moving the couplers in.  I know the ALM diaphragms are slightly too wide, but they match up with all the other equipment.

[SkipGear]

Mark,
 I have a 12-1 I am working on that I have already moved the bolster pins toward the ends of the cars and flipped the trucks around. This will give more truck clearance to move the coupler back. I have some 1016 couplers that I am going to try by mounting them back farther. This should result in a longer coupler to allow the cars to opperate a little better on tighter radius and get them coupled closer together.

Pictures at 11.

[jmlaboda - RIP]

The fact that the RR 12 - 1 is short is curious since ALL Plan 2410 and 3410 cars were the same length.  I have heard it said that it is a cross between the two but am not so convinced anymore, given the photos that have been shown on the N-scale Varnish list.  While it would be great if MT would backdate the car (doubtful?) I would stick with it versus the RR car largely because of the detail.  I just hope that someone will step up to possibly made some etched brass sides for other varieties of Pullman that are not likely going to be done by MT.

[Mark5]

My scale rule says the Rivarossi is 80'6" from end to end of the roof. The MTL car is 81'6" for the same.



Mark

[Nato]

  The car being compaired in the photo is the Rivarossi Diner which is a Santa Fe Prototype that my sources list as being 80'6". I pulled out a Rivarossi 12-1 car and placed it side by side with my MT. Yes there is a leingth difference, but it is hard to tell if it is as great as in the comparison photo, and no I didn't measure with a ruler. It would appear though that the Rivarossi cars are all same leingth. The cafe Lounge Car also an A.T.S.F. car has same leingth and my data also shows protype leingth of 80"6".          Nate Goodman (Nato). Salt Lake, Utah.

[Mark5]

  The car being compaired in the photo is the Rivarossi Diner which is a Santa Fe Prototype

Actually it is a RR 12-1, the roof must have been swapped at some point. It seems I inadvertantly deleted the other photos. (oops)

Mark

[Mark5]

OK, reposting the pics I originally stuck in this thread:



Here's the window differences that hit me at a glance:

[SkipGear]

Modifications to improve tight radius performance and coupling distance:



Redrill new bolster hole in the underframe as shown. Drill a new coupler mounting hole at the extreme end of the underframe. Install a 1016 coupler in the new hole. Flip the truck around 180 degrees and install in the new bolster hole.



The result:

Straight line coupling -


Coupling on an 11" R curve (Not pretty but it works. This is absolute minimum radius with the change, before my cars would derail on an 11" test loop)

[Mark5]

Thanks Tony - looks easier than I thought! ;D

[SkipGear]

It only takes about 10 minutes per car to convert them (providing you have assembled 1016's). I found it best to but a 1015 shim under the coupler so that it doesn't bind on the car body. If you are going to operate on 11"R  stuff, you may need to bevel the center rib on the underframe just a touch as the wheel flange can rub at extreme most swing of the trucks.

As a bonus, the trucks don't spin around to far now.